D&D 5E How do you handle the "economy killing spells" in your game?

Umbran · May 14, 2019

lowkey13 said:
Yes, but also no?

I think that the only good way to approach this was already stated by [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] - "I do nothing, because I do not play an economy simulation game, I play a game of adventures."

"The best way to approach it is to not approach it," is kind of a discussion-ending, non-starter of a comment, though. It is kind of like walking into a discussion about making peanut-butter sandwiches, and stolidly proclaiming, "I am allergic to peanut butter!" I mean, sure. Fine. That's great. But you're kinda done once you've said that.

I mean, I happen to agree with you that armor *as we currently think about it* is bespoke- but then again, so was everything back then, because there was no technology (or magic) to make it quickly.

It is not enough for production to be quick. If you want to get away from bespoke, you need quick, cheap, and repeatable - so that you can produce an array of items with minor variations, which get close enough to the customer's needs that you don't actually have to talk to the customer.

We accept off-the-rack clothes because there's a vast supply of them in a variety of sizes and styles, so that we can each find the one that fits us well enough, that looks good enough. You may need dozens of different items to be able to make sure the customer wants one of them. If all you get is quick, but not cheap, then you, the producer, cannot afford to produce a wide array of items beforehand.

A bog standard 7th level wizard can cast a spell that takes 10 minutes, but can do it only once per long rest. That's faster than a smith can do it, sure. But, it isn't what we think of as "mass production" levels either. How many suits of armor can you sell in one town? Do you spend a month making 30 suits in a variety of shapes and sizes and styles, hold them in stock (which has a cost associated with it - space to store them, someone to polish them up (because rust will happen if they are not maintained) and hope they sell? Or do you wait for a customer comes in and "fabricate on demand"?

lowkey13 · May 14, 2019

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Stalker0 · May 14, 2019

Just noting...armor making was just one example. There are lots of others.

Gem cutting or jewelry making is another area where high value goods can be made, and the “fit the wearer” concerns are a lot less.

lowkey13 · May 14, 2019

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Dausuul · May 14, 2019

Stalker0 said:
Just noting...armor making was just one example. There are lots of others.

Gem cutting or jewelry making is another area where high value goods can be made, and the “fit the wearer” concerns are a lot less.

But the lack of scalability remains the same. If the wizard-artisan niche is confined to making luxury goods, they aren't going to transform the economy. It's a great business model for the wizard, but the consequences for world-building are basically nil.

MichaelSomething · May 14, 2019

If I was a wizard with fabricate, I wouldn't make armor; I'd mass produce books. Public libraries! Higher literacy rates! Easier access to knowledge! Those sound like goals a wizard could get behind.

It also has a nice side affect of making the world more like ours, therefore making it easier to relate to.

Tony Vargas · May 14, 2019

Umbran said:
A bog standard 7th level wizard can cast a spell that takes 10 minutes, but can do it only once per long rest. That's faster than a smith can do it, sure. But, it isn't what we think of as "mass production" levels either. How many suits of armor can you sell in one town? Do you spend a month making 30 suits in a variety of shapes and sizes and styles, hold them in stock (which has a cost associated with it - space to store them, someone to polish them up (because rust will happen if they are not maintained) and hope they sell? Or do you wait for a customer comes in and "fabricate on demand"?

It's really not that the wiz can 'only' cast fabricate once/day, it's that he can do so /every day/, so he can approach it systematically. So, he takes orders for things that are customized, to fit, and also offers a more expensive 'on demand' option. On days when no one ponies up for 'on demand,' he reduces his backlog of orders by 1. When his backlog's caught up, and he's closing up shop with no 'on demand' or new orders that day, he Fabricates something non-customized for stock.
He'll probably find a systematic use for each of his other spell slots, too, since that's how this hypothetical guy thinks.

Oofta · May 15, 2019

To me, thinking about some of this stuff just leads to a never-ending rabbit hole. I tried at one point just for grins to really think through this stuff and detail out what the effects would be and I just don't think there's a great answer.

So I take a middle road. Yes, a sufficiently high level wizard can make high value items given raw materials but there's a catch. For things like armor, they need to be really good at making said armor before they ever cast a spell. That doesn't mean a few days at the forge, it takes months if not years of effort to become truly skilled at something that complex. Assuming you can craft the whole thing with one casting (I don't) you still need to know how all the pieces fit together, where the rivets need to go, how thick the different pieces need to be. How do you get that experience? By working the metal into plates and then fitting them all together manually. It's a lot of hard, physically demanding labor. Not saying it doesn't or couldn't happen just that it's not common even amongst wizards that are high enough level. Seeing armor and having basic understanding of blacksmithing isn't going to cut it.

In addition you need high quality steel. Also, what's the definition of "raw materials"? It could go anywhere on a scale from raw iron ore and a source of carbon and other trace minerals up to having pre-made sheets of steel. A big part of the cost of armor is the creation of the steel plates, you can't just run down to the local Smithy Mart and throw it in the cart.

But worst case? Plate armor is far more common than it was historically. Maybe even affordable by people from a peasant background that have managed to scrounge up coin from doing mercenary work and "archaeological artifact retrieval" services.

The same goes for jewelry or other high value items. You still need the jewels, the gold and silver. But just as important is the skill to arrange it all into a pleasing design.

Of course this is also less of a concern in my world since I use the alternate long rest rules where a long rest is several days, usually a week or more. Add it all up and the wizard can make a good living doing this, but it hardly breaks the economy any more than any number of other facets of D&D.

Which doesn't mean that magic doesn't affect the economy. It absolutely does. But just like alchemists occasionally figuring out how to make gold and silver has devalued those minerals it's overall effect would be fairly subtle.

cbwjm · May 15, 2019

That 7th level wizard is able to fabricate at least twice a day with arcane recovery, it lets them do a little work in the morning and perhaps something in the afternoon as well. Since this craft-mage is an entrepreneur, they are also likely looking for other ways to make their spells work for them. Mending items, comprehend languages for translation services, arcane lock* for security services, continual flame* spells, gentle repose for funerary services (I can see a necromancer using this, but it might be more the province of clerics), catnap to help with chronic insomniacs (a very specialised service. Also, I like how this requires a pinch of sand as the material component). I wouldn't be surprised in a world filled with magic if dispel magic was a common request from clients, the same with remove curse. Nondetection* might be used when having to hide someone who has angered someone powerful with access to divination magic. In coastal regions, water breathing might be a common request to go diving for pearls. All of these spells are 3rd level or lower so the 7th level wizard is still able to fabricate up to twice a day.

*These spells have a cost of 25-50gp for spell components, raising the cost of the spell beyond most except the wealthy members of society.

Maxperson · May 15, 2019

Stalker0 said:
Just noting...armor making was just one example. There are lots of others.

Gem cutting or jewelry making is another area where high value goods can be made, and the “fit the wearer” concerns are a lot less.

Not really. This is from a gem cutting site.

How long does it take to cut a gemstone?

I generally work on a stone a day. I don't cut a stone every day, week in week out but I do try to keep up a good pace. It also depends on the size of the stone, the complexity of the design, type of material, etc. Smaller simpler designs maybe four to five hours a stone. Medium sort of stones about five to eight hours while other stones can take 2 or more days. Some stones like sapphires simply take a little longer to do because it is a hard stone. Big stones with big facets can take alot longer to polish. I certainly don't "rush" my cutting. I give each stone the same high level of attention and care. Being in a hurry and rushing one's cutting is a sure way to botch things up. Each and every stone deserves it's full measure of time, appreciation, respect and the best that I can do.

As you can see, the wizard and normal gem cutters can do multiple stones a day. I guess the wizard can edge out the normal guy and get one extra stone in, but it's not going to be a business ruiner.

As for jewelry, the spell only allows one item to be fabricated, so you can do a silver necklace, a gold necklace, a platinum ring, etc. You can't make it out of multiple metals or with gems, because those involve multiple items. That means the normal jeweler will have better quality stuff available that is made by hand, so the wizard won't be driving them out of business, either.

That actually brings up a good point. Many armors like leather, chain, and such are essentially one piece(even if comprised of lots of links). Plate armor, though, is made up of many distinctly different pieces. Breastplate, helmet, gauntlets, pauldrons, gorget, greaves and more. Each of those would require a different spell to create.