D&D 5E Durable Feat is weak, Healer feat is too strong

doctorbadwolf · Jun 15, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
The brilliance of 5e is that the system is not the game: the DM is.

Thought experiment: try putting 5e on autopilot, resolve to run a quick session with no rulings, just rules. Here's how it goes:

The players build some characters, the DM describes the situation, a player declares an action - and the game stops, because there is no resolution without a DM ruling.

And that's just effing brilliant, because, while 1e conditioned players to depend on the DM more or less by accident, 5e set out to do it, on purpose, admitted they were doing it, and totally got away with it.

It's why I'm up to run 5e, but wouldn't run 3.5 again unless there was some real money in it.

Eh, I think you're exaggerating the case, as the very, very, least.

The player declares an action, and the system describes various methods of resolution, depending on the sort of action being declared. If it's an attack, you roll initiative and go from there. If it's an attempt to find your way past a guard, the system tells the DM to pick the most appropriate Ability Score based on the broad methodology of the attempt, and the PHB has examples of the types of activities that fall under each one. If the character has a relevant proficiency, they add that to the roll. either way, they then roll a d20, add ability score and potentially proficiency bonus, and compare it to either a DC set based on the guidelines on Easy, Hard, etc DCs, or against a passive score of the NPC, or an ability contest, depending on how directly your attempt to get past the guard interacts with said guard.

It's fairly inaccurate to claim that all of that is just the DM as the game. There's rather a lot of system, in that.

Fenris-77 · Jun 15, 2019

I think we can all agree the feat, full stop, should all be sky blue. If you're going to give up an ASI to get them they should be uniformly awesome, and they're not.

coolAlias · Jun 15, 2019

Shiroiken said:
Sharpshooter is the only one I feel needs tuned down, and only a little (double short range and reduce cover by 3 AC).

A solution I came up with is to restrict characters with Sharpshooter to only one of the benefits per attack: they can either ignore cover, range, or do tons of damage, but not all at the same time.

They can of course freely mix up which option they choose per attack, even within the same turn.

I find this still lets them be awesome archers without being freaking laser beams.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

coolAlias said:
A solution I came up with is to restrict characters with Sharpshooter to only one of the benefits per attack: they can either ignore cover, range, or do tons of damage, but not all at the same time.

They can of course freely mix up which option they choose per attack, even within the same turn.

I find this still lets them be awesome archers without being freaking laser beams.

Like they basically become "weapon cantrips"? I kind of like that idea.

DEFCON 1 · Jun 15, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I keep thinking that the proficiency feats are all complete garbage from a power standpoint. I wish that the weapon master feat gave a fighting style or something.

I'm surprised at combining Athlete and Mobile, though. IME, Athlete is a pretty popular feat.

Maybe overall, but at my tables I've yet to have any "obvious" choices. And as I hate to have two selections when a single one would do (which is why for example I got rid of the Acrobats skill and just use DEX (Athletics) instead)... having two different movement based feats was unnecessary to me. So after my edits to the feat list, this particular feat now looks like:

FREERUNNER
- Your speed increases by 10 feet.
- You may use a Bonus action on your turn to take the Dash action.
- Difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement.
- When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement.
- Climbing doesn't halve your speed.
- You can make a running long or high jump after moving only 5 feet rather than 10.
- When falling, you may reduce the distance fallen by 20' for the purposes of calculating damage.

So the feat does not completely combine the two other ones as-is, there are a few edits to it. But it gives a very nice package to a PC who wishes to be a much more movement-based character, and it really helps exemplify it in the world.

Someone else might thing all this stuff it too much (and based upon how they run their own game, they could be right)... but I've had this feat available for four separate games now and it's only been selected I think once. Mainly because ASIs are still easier / oftentimes more useful... and even more importantly to me, my players don't select things strictly on MOAR POWER! but actually on what their character is actual like. And thus far no one else has had a PC that made being a freerunner a logical extension of it.

DEFCON 1 · Jun 15, 2019

And in terms of the Weapon Master feat... I ditched it altogether and merged its effects into Martial Adept, where that feat gives you proficiency in all Simple and Martial weapons in addition to the combat maneuvers and superiority die.

Because really, all Weapon Master was was a fluff feat meant to allow PCs to re-fluff the weapon they could use into the form they wanted to use (despite little to no power gain since the damages any PC would put out they already could do with weapons they were already proficient in.)

So I'm not going to make a PC spend a feat for what was essentially a weapon re-fluff.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 15, 2019

DEFCON 1 said:
Maybe overall, but at my tables I've yet to have any "obvious" choices. And as I hate to have two selections when a single one would do (which is why for example I got rid of the Acrobats skill and just use DEX (Athletics) instead)... having two different movement based feats was unnecessary to me. So after my edits to the feat list, this particular feat now looks like:

FREERUNNER
- Your speed increases by 10 feet.
- You may use a Bonus action on your turn to take the Dash action.
- Difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement.
- When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement.
- Climbing doesn't halve your speed.
- You can make a running long or high jump after moving only 5 feet rather than 10.
- When falling, you may reduce the distance fallen by 20' for the purposes of calculating damage.

So the feat does not completely combine the two other ones as-is, there are a few edits to it. But it gives a very nice package to a PC who wishes to be a much more movement-based character, and it really helps exemplify it in the world.

Someone else might thing all this stuff it too much (and based upon how they run their own game, they could be right)... but I've had this feat available for four separate games now and it's only been selected I think once. Mainly because ASIs are still easier / oftentimes more useful... and even more importantly to me, my players don't select things strictly on MOAR POWER! but actually on what their character is actual like. And thus far no one else has had a PC that made being a freerunner a logical extension of it.

Interesting. There is enough there that I’d take that as a rogue or monk (which I almost always play as acrobats), but I’d probably rather have the pseudo-disengage benefit of Mobile than some of the stuff you’ve added. Partly because in my games, someone proficient in Acrobatics can use that skill to reduce falling damage or try to ignore difficult terrain already. Like you suggested, different games will be affected by a given feat differently.

Tony Vargas · Jun 15, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Eh, I think you're exaggerating the case, as the very, very, least.

DMs are people, not robots, so, yeah, it has to be a very extreme hypothetical. Even the least experienced, least talented DM is going to exercise judgement when the system punts to him.

The player declares an action, and the system describes various methods of resolution, depending on the sort of action being declared

Sure, but those come in after DM has judged success/failure/uncertainty.

It's fairly inaccurate to claim that all of that is just the DM as the game. There's rather a lot of system, in that.

Theres the d20 core mechanic, really. The players get 6 stats and various proficiencies, and a (very) few other bonuses. And the DM sets a DC, which is no different from setting a % chance of success with a granularity of 5.

Now, the reality is there are two areas where the DM will rarely rule success/failure and DCs are mostly predefined: combat and casting.

And, of course, in organized play, at a convention, using modules, the DM shaping the game may not be just the one at the table: AL has it's own predefined rulings, and modules set a lot of resolution for you.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 15, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
DMs are people, not robots, so, yeah, it has to be a very extreme hypothetical. Even the least experienced, least talented DM is going to exercise judgement when the system punts to him.

Sure, but those come in after DM has judged success/failure/uncertainty.

Theres the d20 core mechanic, really. The players get 6 stats and various proficiencies, and a (very) few other bonuses. And the DM sets a DC, which is no different from setting a % chance of success with a granularity of 5.

Now, the reality is there are two areas where the DM will rarely rule success/failure and DCs are mostly predefined: combat and casting.

And, of course, in organized play, at a convention, using modules, the DM shaping the game may not be just the one at the table: AL has it's own predefined rulings, and modules set a lot of resolution for you.

Again, that’s a lot of system. 5e runs without kit bashing. The game works. It’s functional.

Satyrn · Jun 15, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I keep thinking that the proficiency feats are all complete garbage from a power standpoint. I wish that the weapon master feat gave a fighting style or something.

They kind of are garbage...unless you have an odd ability score, and then they are awesome.

Moderately Armored gave my rogue everything a Dex increase would, and bumped my AC up to match the highest in the party. It was a hefty power boost.