D&D 5E Resource-Draining Model D&D Doesn't Work (for me)

Retreater said:

Any one else experiencing this? Any work-arounds?

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You could change D&D to a game based around the Short Rest. Here are the changed tables for spellcasters.

Fanaelialae said:

I realize that. But the group in question is composed of six newbies. They still don't always successfully track their resources within a session; I have no faith that they'll track them beyond the session. Think me lazy if you wish, but I have no interest in doing all the work of tracking from week to week.

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As [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] mentioned, D&D mechanically is about resource management. If you have players that aren't interested in resource management, and as newbies not yet invested in 5e, perhaps the right solution is to look for another game system that better supports your table's play style. I love 5e, but it's not the only good fantasy RPG out there, and there are many that have minimal resource focus outside of the scope a scene.

DM Dave1 said:

Popcorn!

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I like Popcorn initiative, but not in 5e. As part of keeping things streamlined, they went for the shorthand of a lot of spells and features lasting until the start of your next action, or otherwise using your action as a shorthand for "everyone has gone once". When the initiative changes round to round, sometimes effects will end up doubling up when someone goes slow one round than fast in another, or not affecting someone at all in the reverse.

With a player chose initiative system they can really take advantage of this. "Oh look, foe X cast Shield during my action, but since they haven't gone yet this round I'm going to give them initiative next so the AC bonus is gone before my friends attack him." And it's not even good for the goose, good for the gander because a DM who purposefully trying to mess over player features so they are of minimal use is not fun to play with.

Blue said:

I like Popcorn initiative, but not in 5e. As part of keeping things streamlined, they went for the shorthand of a lot of spells and features lasting until the start of your next action, or otherwise using your action as a shorthand for "everyone has gone once". When the initiative changes round to round, sometimes effects will end up doubling up when someone goes slow one round than fast in another, or not affecting someone at all in the reverse.

With a player chose initiative system they can really take advantage of this. "Oh look, foe X cast Shield during my action, but since they haven't gone yet this round I'm going to give them initiative next so the AC bonus is gone before my friends attack him." And it's not even good for the goose, good for the gander because a DM who purposefully trying to mess over player features so they are of minimal use is not fun to play with.

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Yeah, I agree there are some unintended action economy consequences in 5e when you shuffle up the order round to round. That said, a bad DM will find other ways to be bad - for the sake of discussion, I assume players and DMs are upholding the social contract to play in good faith.

In any case, we tried popcorn initiative for a couple of sessions in two 5e groups and both groups generally agreed it was too “gamely” for their tastes. It’s interesting the Angry states he doesn’t use it either.

DM Dave1 said:

Yeah, I agree there are some unintended action economy consequences in 5e when you shuffle up the order round to round. That said, a bad DM will find other ways to be bad - for the sake of discussion, I assume players and DMs are upholding the social contract to play in good faith.

In any case, we tried popcorn initiative for a couple of sessions in two 5e groups and both groups generally agreed it was too “gamely” for their tastes. It’s interesting the Angry states he doesn’t use it either.

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When we ran popcorn, I used a simple graph chart for durations. Initiative order 1 - X, 1 being the first slot, and X being the last. Any time a duration was created, it was marked on the Initiative Count it was invoked, and then went away based on that count of the next round, regardless of whose turn it was at the time. I do this regardless of the initiative system used as a DM, but since we favor dynamic initiative so often, it became a good habit for me.

However, that doesn't contradict the valid points for why Popcorn isn't for everyone, that's for sure. We actually used it for Fate far more than 5e, way back when we played the former.

Blue said:

As [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] mentioned, D&D mechanically is about resource management. If you have players that aren't interested in resource management, and as newbies not yet invested in 5e, perhaps the right solution is to look for another game system that better supports your table's play style. I love 5e, but it's not the only good fantasy RPG out there, and there are many that have minimal resource focus outside of the scope a scene.

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I get that this is a public forum and that folks are free to speak their mind. I appreciate that you and others are trying to be helpful. However, as I said before I am not having a problem and I don't need help. My posts were not complaining, but rather explaining why I am running this campaign the way I am. But as I've said, my initial post was simply about the fact that I think it would be nice if there was an encounter calculator designed for short days, despite the shortcomings of such a tool. I eyeball it myself without much trouble, but I like having a tool like the encounter builder to sanity check myself.

5e is heavily resource management based, but that's not necessarily going to be the level at which a newbie engages with the game. A newbie often just wants to play a cool character, kill monsters, and find treasure. They don't care about managing resources intensively. That comes later, as the player begins working towards system mastery.

I assure you that my game is working as intended. We're all having considerable fun, and they are learning the game at their own pace.

I don't need to focus on resource management with them because they feel challenged even without it. I can throw a single encounter at them, and simply circumvent their front line with an enemy to stomp on the squishies in the back. And they'll react like they were a round away from a TPK despite the fact that I reduced their resources by maybe 25%, tops. Probably closer to 10%, realistically speaking. Yes, I'm running an easy game for them. I can always TPK them in the next campaign to teach them the harsh truths of the adventuring life.

Besides, it's not as though they don't track resources whatsoever. They try, and I do my best to help them when they forget. They're good at tracking HP. Only so-so with abilities. I frequently have to remind the warlock and wizard when they're out of slots. Less so the wizard, but I think that has more to do with the fact that they're getting higher in level so it's simply harder for him to run out. I know for a fact that some of them have short changed themselves on XP. I keep reasonably detailed notes, so I try to go back and figure it out when it happens, but in one case I just had to tell the guy to bump himself up to the next lowest player's XP total. He was cool with it though, so no real issue.

We're playing 5e simply because that's what they wanted to play. I'm not the kind of guy to tell a newbie that he has to play a fighter rather than the wizard he has his heart set on, simply because he's new, if you follow my meaning.

I might see if I can convince them to try The Dawnline for the next campaign, but that's more because I really want to try Dawnline. Maybe Monsterpunk, if it's released by then, because I'd love to try that game. Maybe a game or two of Shinobigami if they're willing. That's all a fair way off though, as I think the earliest this campaign will end is around the end of the year.

CapnZapp said:

"I don't like D&D being a resource-management game. How can I make D&D be not about managing resources?"

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'Play a different game'

DnD is all about resources (mechanically). That's why things like the DM policing the adventuring day is vital to encounter and class balance.

If those things are not balancing, you're not managing the adventuring day, or doing your job as DM.

I shudder each time I see a DM ramping up encounter difficulty in response to nova tactics or the 5MWD.

That just makes things worse.

Flamestrike said:

'Play a different game'

DnD is all about resources (mechanically). That's why things like the DM policing the adventuring day is vital to encounter and class balance.

If those things are not balancing, you're not managing the adventuring day, or doing your job as DM.

I shudder each time I see a DM ramping up encounter difficulty in response to nova tactics or the 5MWD.

That just makes things worse.

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Game still works fine. There’s just less balance between classes. That’s something I don’t prefer but it may be a better alternative than trying to change the whole style and adventure pacing to shoehorn 6-8 encounters per day just for the sake of class balance.

the classes hurt the worst by a short adventuring day are also the easiest to fix with magic items that the casters won’t be very interested in

FrogReaver said:

Game still works fine. There’s just less balance between classes. That’s something I don’t prefer but it may be a better alternative than trying to change the whole style and adventure pacing to shoehorn 6-8 encounters per day just for the sake of class balance.

the classes hurt the worst by a short adventuring day are also the easiest to fix with magic items that the casters won’t be very interested in

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Personally, I find that you can fairly easily maintain balance by simply putting in a bit of variety. Even if you mostly use short, difficult adventuring days, as long as you throw in a handful of longer days in the campaign the players will be far more judicious with their resources and less likely to nova. As long as you avoid nova, you can have short days without unbalancing the classes. The long rest classes essentially become more of a safety valve, since if they're severely pressured by an encounter they can nova in order to prevent a TPK. But it won't be their go to move, since they'll always be wondering if today is going to be a long day. IME, anyway.

Fanaelialae said:

Personally, I find that you can fairly easily maintain balance by simply putting in a bit of variety. Even if you mostly use short, difficult adventuring days, as long as you throw in a handful of longer days in the campaign the players will be far more judicious with their resources and less likely to nova. As long as you avoid nova, you can have short days without unbalancing the classes. The long rest classes essentially become more of a safety valve, since if they're severely pressured by an encounter they can nova in order to prevent a TPK. But it won't be their go to move, since they'll always be wondering if today is going to be a long day. IME, anyway.

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Sure. Though it can still be hard to even occasionally through in adventure days like that. I suppose an adventuring day that takes place over multiple sessions may work as an occasional tool for this.