D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Alternately, there is an implicit suggestion that challenges in high-level locations will involve things other than Cave Slime. That's how I would read it anyway: in a hypothetical 5E system where you get +1 prof bonus/level instead of +1/4, knowing that Cave Slime is DC 10 implies "high-level adventurers don't have to worry about cave slime (unless they're untrained in Acrobatics)." Instead of worrying about slipping on cave slime you worry about a qualitatively different threat, like whether the dragon whose cave you're slipping into has emplaced Symbols of Insanity in the chokepoints. Or rigged an Explosive Runes to blow up the dam and drown you.

To me, qualitative threat progression (tactical ==> operational ==> strategic) is way more interesting than just scaling up the quantitative DC ("it's really, really slippery slime") of a familiar threat. E.g. Aboleths aren't just upgraded orcs, they're qualitatively different and operate on a completely different, more strategic scale which could involve creating three minions a day every day for a thousand years and sending those minions out to capture more potential minions for you to dominate. If you think a Necromancer with 100 skeletons is bad news, consider that a master Vampire can vampirize an entire army of thousands of hobgoblins. Rakshasas infiltrate your organization and subvert it from within with telepathy and illusions (a la X-Men's Mystique) to defeat it in a way completely different from an orc chieftain or a hobgoblin warlord. Fixed DCs encourage graduation to new types of threats instead of just variations on the same old threat: Ultra Slippery Acidic Cave Slime.

Again, I think this analysis rather ignores the trivial place that Cave Slime occupies in the scheme of things. IMHO it is intended to be an element you can throw into a game, at some point you feel is appropriate, and then its done and over and gone. Aboleths and Demon Lords and such are far different things. In the 5e approach you either use Cave Slime in a specific fictional context selected by the author of the game, or you don't use it. In the 4e approach the fictional context is less dictated. Given that 4e has a much wider range of PC growth (you totally outclass orcs at high level, not just "they don't hurt me very bad" they are actually unable to even try to hurt you) I think its more appropriate to allow for a range in these things because otherwise their applicability may become overly narrow. THAT might in fact create a kind of stereotyping where every level 12 dungeon is the only place you find Cave Slime because it isn't useful in any other place. 5e's math requires less of that I suppose.
 

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I like that clerics are no longer purely healers. They feel more like holy warriors now. No longer there to support the other members, but to hammer down as servants of their god. Clerics feel like they have real combat purpose and power now.

Hmmmm, they didn't in the previous edition? I was so pleased when we first played 4e, the players created a human cleric, a half-elf rogue, a dwarf fighter, and a half-elf warlock IIRC. I guess there was an Eladrin Wizard too. Very classic. Yet the Cleric rarely healed, was a STR cleric, and was pretty much a beatdown specialist that would cripplingly debuff each melee opponent one after another, after which the fighter or rogue would chew them up and spit them out. She did get rather classic when it came to undead (being a cleric of light, go figure) but even that level of divergence from the 2e tropes I was used to was pretty refreshing. I hear Hemlock asserting that clerics are extraneous in 5e. Its at variance with my experience, and sounds like it somewhat rests on a tricky bard build (I'm skeptical our DM would pass on that) but I certainly do hope that its at least possible to break that limitation.
 

Not to bash on 4E, but the lack of a pure healer was a significant point of contention during early 4E. Some people really like being the healer, but the system was telling them that they had to attack (and actually hit!) an enemy in order to grant an ally a few temporary Hit Points.

If some clerics could make great healers, and other clerics could make decent holy warriors, then that would put 5E ahead of all other editions (in this one aspect).

It wasn't really saying you had to hit in order to heal, it was just saying you would always have a chance to make attacks instead of being stuck doing nothing BUT heal. The problem being that healing is so overwhelmingly useful that if it exists at all it will displace any other function. The 4e designers believed (and probably verified in play test) that providing an at-will healing option would instantly relegate all clerics to being nothing but hit point batteries. They certainly moderated that stance over time, so DP allows for a purely non-combat healer (though you may still have to make some attack roles to achieve every bit of healing you could possibly get). They added a number of disadvantages to this build (in fact almost the only time 4e ever put an explicit disadvantage on any mechanic) to try to prevent it from becoming so good that became factored into the game as a necessary resource. Even so they failed on the first cut, they had to issue errata to very significantly cut the healing power of Pacifist clerics later on because they were literally becoming a required element, they were just so potent.

You could still focus really heavily on healing type stuff (take CLW as a daily, take the right domain, get one of several feats that improved healing, etc) and build a non-melee cleric that did attack foes but did it using divine magic instead of beating them with a mace.

5e seems to have somewhat the same pitfall going on. You now have paladins who's save granting is so vital that they are scary close to mandatory, as well as apparently the super healy bard, which sounds like you REALLY wouldn't want to do with out it either.
 

Its a nice idea. 4e has something pretty similar with its hireling rules (the ones that came out in MME/Dragon). I think they're more effective though when you have an abstract system like SC to give them more leverage. You can get something out of the advantage mechanic, but I just liked things like "make this Hard DC check into a Medium DC check" kind of thing. It worked well in SCs.

Yup. It was good. Personally though, I just liked using the Companion rules. In my last 1-30 game, each PC had a companion that persisted in the fiction but would fade into the background on an encounter to encounter basis (depending on if they wanted their Companion to have an impact on the fiction). The Companions had 3 Trained Skills and their normal Standard (XP-budget wise) suite of combat capabilities. Include them (mechanically) in the SC and split the xp 1 more way. Include them (mechanically) in a combat and lop off 1 Standard's worth of xp gained at the end.

Couldn't be more simple or effective.

That being said, I still don't understand the outcry against 5e (by 5e advocates) that there is nothing to use money for (eg gold is useless). The system's mechanical infrastructure (primarily Ad/Disad) elegantly allows for PCs to buy favors or to hire hirelings. If I was running 5e, that is precisely what I would be using that "extra gold" for.
 

Yup. It was good. Personally though, I just liked using the Companion rules. In my last 1-30 game, each PC had a companion that persisted in the fiction but would fade into the background on an encounter to encounter basis (depending on if they wanted their Companion to have an impact on the fiction). The Companions had 3 Trained Skills and their normal Standard (XP-budget wise) suite of combat capabilities. Include them (mechanically) in the SC and split the xp 1 more way. Include them (mechanically) in a combat and lop off 1 Standard's worth of xp gained at the end.

Couldn't be more simple or effective.

That being said, I still don't understand the outcry against 5e (by 5e advocates) that there is nothing to use money for (eg gold is useless). The system's mechanical infrastructure (primarily Ad/Disad) elegantly allows for PCs to buy favors or to hire hirelings. If I was running 5e, that is precisely what I would be using that "extra gold" for.

Yeah, I think it is just that the bulk of real 5e proponents are heavily into a fairly mechanistic style of play where they want classes to be rules of the world that every NPC goes by, and they want a very structured set of henchman rules ala 1e. Actually I kind of liked the 1e henchman recruitment mini-game, it wasn't too bad, but it was overall a bit too concrete, the resulting henchmen required a lot of energy to run and I think that discouraged their use overall by most groups.

In our 5e game my character hired a couple men-at-arms. He uses his spare cash, or looted equipment, to enhance them. So now they're AC18 and armed with military picks, and crossbows. The DM doesn't advance them, they're more hirelings than henchmen, but they'll remain useful for at least a few more levels, and they at least serve the narrative function of guarding the camp/base from 'vermin'. It would be fun to have some real henchmen though.
 

pemerton

Legend
Alternately, there is an implicit suggestion that challenges in high-level locations will involve things other than Cave Slime.

<snip>

Fixed DCs encourage graduation to new types of threats instead of just variations on the same old threat: Ultra Slippery Acidic Cave Slime.
I think this is a big problem in the HPE modules published by WotC for 4e - they manifest exactly the problem of repetition that you state here, and therefore don't display the meaningful progression of the fiction that the core rulebooks (in the tier descriptions I quoted upthread) talk about.

Instead of worrying about slipping on cave slime you worry about a qualitatively different threat, like whether the dragon whose cave you're slipping into has emplaced Symbols of Insanity in the chokepoints. Or rigged an Explosive Runes to blow up the dam and drown you.

To me, qualitative threat progression (tactical ==> operational ==> strategic) is way more interesting than just scaling up the quantitative DC ("it's really, really slippery slime") of a familiar threat.
4e doesn't really emphasise the tactical to operational to strategic - or rather, the fiction can change in this sort of way but mechanically much of it will still be skill challenges (but the fictional framing of the skill checks takes on a bigger scope).

But 4e does do a good job of the first sort of escalation you describe (eg Symbols of Insanity in chokepoints). On the player side, you see this sort of thing in powers that open up new conditions (eg stun, dominate) and new forms of movement (fly, decent distance teleport). So the tactical context, both for exploration and for combat, changes quite a bit as the PCs gain levels.

Just amping up the Cave Slime won't play to these features of the system - as the HPE modules tend to demonstrate.

I'm going to call on [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] at this point, to see if he has any views on how what I've said fits into his reply to you on this point upthread.

4e produced a sort of super heroes like kind of aesthetic where high level characters really aren't much troubled by the ordinary muck and dreck of existence. The interesting thing is, in that system you can simulate the effects of luck, fate, an evil plot, whatever, by simply placing a level 20 cave slime in the path of a high level character who's 'walking down the street'. Its a sort of natural thing to do in fact. What is the fictional justification? Luck, fate, evil plot, run with it!
I think the use of levels (and associated mechanica elements like DCs, etc) to represent luck, fate, etc is an interesting aspect of 4e that certainly moves away from "objective" DCs.

You see this in other mechanics, too, like the Alexandrian's favourite "besieged foe" or the bonus to damage a marking target that a heroslayer hydra gets. What do these represent? They give the game a narrative dynamic or a "fate", wherein certain heroes find themselves beset at the centre of the fray.

Personally, this is an element of 4e that I really value - I find it helps give the game a mythic, epic feel in play. My extensive experience with Rolemaster makes me believe that it is something much harder to achieve in an "objective DC" game where every die roll is expected to be correlated in some fashion with a causally understood gameworld process. You can try to introduce gameworld processes to model luck, of course, but as soon as you give them the sort of mechanical and rule-governed tractability that fits within an objective DC framework you've already lost that sense of whimsy or myth (as the mood takes one) that I think 4e is able to convey.

Fifth Edition doesn't have rules taking into account that you're trying to tell a story
I think this is contentious. (Hence whether 5e is a good vehicle to evoke the sense of a world infused by luck, fate, myth etc that I just described is probably also contentious.)

Have a look at [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]'s post 1034, and [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s post 1038. And also the Inspiration mechanics (which are pure player side - NPCs don't earn Inspiration - and affect PCs' chances of success).

That's not to say that you mightn't ignore all those features of the system if you wanted to. But then you could run 4e with objective DCs if you wanted to, by drawing on the doors and environmental hazards tables and extrapolating a bit from there. (Much as 5e is going to require some extrapolation, too, to assign "objective" DCs to every gameworld element.)

And somewhat as a side-effect, to prevent narrative dead-ends, it chooses to define the world in such a way that Bounded Accuracy is the result.
Not following your second comment here. Care to elaborate?
Obviously I'm not Saelorn (and not a Saelorn sock-puppet either!), but here's my take:

A consequence of Bounded Accuracy is that, even if you set DCs based purely on a sense of "objective" features of the ingame situation, you're not going to accidentally dead-end your game (and hence bring the narrative to a sudden halt). This is because even the highest DCs are feasible relative to the spread of bonuses, because of the Bounded Accuracy feature of design.

I think that [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] was making a similar point (or maybe at least gesturing towards it) when he talked upthread about the inclusion of a dragon or a balrog in a low-level adventure. The DC spread ensures that this isn't just a dead-ending for the PCs and hence the narrative flow of the game.

Having stated (what I take to be) the point, I think it's a bit of an open question whether it's completely correct. At least at the extremes, you can have PCs who can't make DC 25 or 30 checks (eg dump stat, no proficiency). And in the combat case, the damage that a dragon or balrog can pump out might make the fact that low level PCs can meet the DCs to hit it pretty irrelevant.
 

pemerton

Legend
Ok, you don't understand it.
Feel free to tell me whether or not my conjectured interpretation was accurate!

Just be aware that there are people who fully appreciate the point you are making and still find it woefully inadequate compared to other options.
You might have misunderstood what I am doing. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to enjoy anything or find anything "adequate". I'm trying to explain how 4e actually works.

In respect of this, I refer you to [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s posts 1025 and 811 - that exactly what I was trying to achieve with my posts.

More generally, I'm finding the discussion with Hemlock, [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] and others interesting to get a sense of how 5e resembles 4e (in some respects) and differs from it (in other respects) - all of which was provoked by [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s own interesting posts comparing the level-appropriate guidelines for DC-setting that 4e has and 5e lacks (for better or worse - obviously a matter on which tastes differ).
 
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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Hmmmm, they didn't in the previous edition? I was so pleased when we first played 4e, the players created a human cleric, a half-elf rogue, a dwarf fighter, and a half-elf warlock IIRC. I guess there was an Eladrin Wizard too. Very classic. Yet the Cleric rarely healed, was a STR cleric, and was pretty much a beatdown specialist that would cripplingly debuff each melee opponent one after another, after which the fighter or rogue would chew them up and spit them out. She did get rather classic when it came to undead (being a cleric of light, go figure) but even that level of divergence from the 2e tropes I was used to was pretty refreshing. I hear Hemlock asserting that clerics are extraneous in 5e. Its at variance with my experience, and sounds like it somewhat rests on a tricky bard build (I'm skeptical our DM would pass on that) but I certainly do hope that its at least possible to break that limitation.

I didn't play 4E much. I didn't like 4E. I played Pathfinder during that period. Our group tried 4E. Most of us didn't like it. We found Pathfinder. Most of us preferred that. Our group played Pathfinder. I only know the 4E Core books somewhat. In that version we tried to play our lethal version of D&D without a cleric healer, didn't work out. Burned through healing surges too quickly. Cleric had some of the better abilities that healed without a Healing Surge. Sure, you could build a warrior cleric. Our play-style pushed us to have a cleric healer.

In 5E we haven't needed a cleric healer even playing the lethal style we play. Cleric doesn't have abilities far superior to other healers at lower level. Only real difference is mass heal at the very highest level and prayer of healing as a level 2 spell. Otherwise, all healers are pretty equal.

Experiences differ in this area. I can't tell if it was the 4E system or the way we play. Probably more the way we play since monsters are played as tactically efficient as possible with the intent of killing the party and encounters massed into one big encounter rather than smaller encounters. This is the first edition of D&D since Basic we didn't need a cleric to survive including Core 4E.
 

It doesn't need to be in the stead of. Any siloing of the aspects of quantitiative and qualitiative threats away from each other is user-centered, not the machinery of the system.

The Powered By the Apocalypse engine has a subjective DC system for its conflict resolution, the same as 4e. In my current Dungeon World game, Aboleths from the Far Realm, their mind-slave servitors, and their "body-snatched" offspring are the PCs' primary antagonists. They've been running through the qualitative threat (I'm going to call it a) continuum (and put the arrows both ways; tactical <==> operational <==> strategic) you've depicted above.

* They have micro-decisions to make that involve the intensive investigation of an eerily abandoned/quiet mountain settlement (a la "Phantoms") to discover just what happened. They have micro-decisions about threat assessment and management of physical conflict.

* They have macro-decisons to make that involve striking out on a perilous, blizzard-threatened journey to a hobgoblin trading outpost and looking for friendlies/intel...or huddling in shelter for days as it blows over...while the timebomb continues to tick They have macro-decisions to make on whether or not to attempt to play off the vanity of the Ancient White Dragon that calls the highland realm home. Can they convince him to aid against this alien invasion of his land? Or will he just be inclined to eat them. If they do seek parley with the dragon, how to get leverage and/or irrefutable evidence of their claim?

They're still climbing harrowing, frozen mountains. They're still in peril of falling into a crevasse or a frozen-over sucking bog. They can still be burned to death by a Remorhaz vaporizing and pressurizing lower layers of permafrost and the steam geysers overwhelming them. But they're extremely powerful PCs (bordering on epic in DW's progression), so all the topographical or environmental hazards they face are turned up to 10 or "variations on the same old threat" as you put it.

4e plays the exact same way. The continuum of tactical <==> operational <==> strategic persists simultaneously with the "variations of the same old threat".

1.) I don't really understand the first paragraph, especially the part in bold.

2.) Your game sounds fun. I agree, mixing different scopes of problems is more fun than sticking strictly to one kind. I never meant to suggest otherwise.

3.) I'll take your word for it on the last paragraph. I wasn't talking about specific editions, I was responding to pemerton's hypothetical on what effect fixed DCs would have on play. In particular, to his speculation that the lack of fixed DCs suggests that high-level adventurers stick to boring, non-fantastic locations and problems. Since this whole thread recently has been about the contention that you can have fixed DCs in 4E too, any conclusions about the effect of fixed DCs naturally would apply to 4E, no? We're talking about game design at this point, not about specific games.
 

BryonD

Hero
Feel free to tell me whether or not my conjectured interpretation was accurate!

You might have misunderstood what I am doing. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to enjoy anything or find anything "adequate". I'm trying to explain how 4e actually works.

In respect of this, I refer you to [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s posts 1025 and 811 - that exactly what I was trying to achieve with my posts.

More generally, I'm finding the discussion with Hemlock, [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] and others interesting to get a sense of how 5e resembles 4e (in some respects) and differs from it (in other respects) - all of which was provoked by [MENTION=6749462]AD[/MENTION]bulAlhazred's own interesting posts comparing the level-appropriate guidelines for DC-setting that 4e has and 5e lacks (for better or worse - obviously a matter on which tastes differ).
Fair enough. There is a lot of different conversation on-going.
This is in the 5E forum and it seems there is a great deal of the same old conversation and whether from you or not, some of the same old mischaracterizations of the perceptions, motives, and thoughtfulness of those who found 4E subpar.
 

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