D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

Zardnaar

Legend
My experience with that matter is that the class was being "demonized as useless" by people other than those that it was designed for - those that don't want a simple fighter, and who the batllemaster was put in the game for - not by people that actually desired to have a fighter class that is as close to as mechanically simple as the classic D&D fighter classes were as 5th edition can handle.

You could build a very effective and simple fighter in 5E but you would just have to have the ability to count. +1 to hit with all weapons or +1 AC or +2 on all saves something like that. 5E bloated hit points on monsters and their damage though. Once upon a time +1 to hit and +2 damage (weapoin specialization) was considered good along with things like rapid save progression. Monks end up with proficiency in all save no reason the fighter could not have gotten 3 save proficiency. Yes I know they kind of get better saves later on but its a late and limited ability.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
As usual [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION], I both feel that I understand what you are saying and am certain that I have no idea why you are saying it.
 

Hussar

Legend
Except that it would mean picking up two scimitars would be a "waste" of a class feature, so it'd sort of pigeonhole you into using one weapon.



Personally, not so interested in comparing it vs. the BM numbers as I am in comparing it to expected party damage vs. monsters. My metric would be: does a party with a Champion in it take more rounds to kill a monster group than a party with a BM in it? I don't know that that's the case (pretty sure ANY fighter hits the threshold there), and if it's not, it looks like the Champion is doing its job just fine - being a reliable option for someone who wants a simple fighter. Folks who don't want a simple fighter aren't happy with it, and that's OK, as long as folks who do want a simple fighter are happy with it. Aside from that, comparing it to the BM damage is like comparing, say, a bard and a cleric in terms of healing. It doesn't really matter who does more, what matters is if both can do enough. After a certain point, it's all just an ego thing.

It's not really a "whose is bigger?" pissing contest, IMO. After a certain point, it doesn't matter. Do Champions reach that point? Seems like they might, even if they "lag behind" the BM.

I'd point out though that the bonus attack would apply to all weapons, single, two handed and ranged. Only the two weapon fighter gets hosed. Not sure how to fix that.

As you say, it all depends on how far they lag. If the only way they can keep up is with two handed weapons, that's not groovy though either.

I do think they lag much farther behind than you do. Give a BM, a ranger with Collosus Slayer, a paladin and a champion the same combat stats and same weapons, the champion will always be dead last.

If that's true, then it's a trap option. Since the only things champions can do is deal damage, I would hope they're ahead of the pack, not at the back, considering all the other classes have other options in addition to dealing more damage.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Give a BM, a ranger with Collosus Slayer, a paladin and a champion the same combat stats and same weapons, the champion will always be dead last.
I had fun by reading this statement not as though there is some kind of foot race that the champion is losing, but as though there is some endurance-style death match that the champion is winning.

That aside, I think your estimation is short sighted, or at the very least is using variables that are entirely in-favor of the non-champion entities like setting the level at which you expect the options to appear roughly equivalent to each other at level 3 or 5 or 10, rather than at the only point that the design of the game actually suggests complete parity should be true (20th level and with numerous encounters in a single resource replenishing period).
 

Hussar

Legend
If the classes are only balanced at 20th level, that would be extremely poor game design.

Remember the Battemaster is not only gaining extra damage but status effects as well. So the BM is dealing more damage plus doing extra stuff as well.

I honestly believe that champion is a trap choice. And I think the math backs me up here. If the only theming your class does is deal damage, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be better at it than anyone else.
 

krakistophales

First Post
I'd point out though that the bonus attack would apply to all weapons, single, two handed and ranged. Only the two weapon fighter gets hosed. Not sure how to fix that.

As you say, it all depends on how far they lag. If the only way they can keep up is with two handed weapons, that's not groovy though either.

I do think they lag much farther behind than you do. Give a BM, a ranger with Collosus Slayer, a paladin and a champion the same combat stats and same weapons, the champion will always be dead last.

If that's true, then it's a trap option. Since the only things champions can do is deal damage, I would hope they're ahead of the pack, not at the back, considering all the other classes have other options in addition to dealing more damage.

This.

For an archetype whose bread-and-butter thing is dealing damage and critting more often, champion doesn't deal more damage or even crit more often against a semi-lucky player. Sure, mathematically it looks like the champion would crit a bunch, but on a normal night in a normal game, that measly extra 5% crit chance is almost meaningless. Then if you roll low on your damage dice for the crit, it can equate to a regular attack with better dice. This is supposed to be a "champion" fighter? Nonsense.

I feel expanding the crit range is a must for the champ the way that crits are now. If the nature of how crits work were to change to, say, doubling everything AND ensuring max damage, then that'd be a different story. Even then, what's wrong with expanding it to 16? How often do you really roll a raw 16 when rolling for attack anyway? And on the off-chance you get to roll advantage, more power to you. How often does that happen?

The barbarian has massive crit dice and a built in wolf totem that allows them at higher levels to literally auto-prone someone ON A HIT, therefore giving them advantage on their next attack everytime. They can use reckless to get advantage on the first one, so basically the barbarian can attack with advantage on both of his attacks every turn, and if he crits, he's doing 6d12 damage at higher levels, but we're crying that the champion will get to 4d6 damage A LITTLE more often? I'm just baffled how people can say the champion isn't a trap option when it falls behind in what it's DESIGNED to do, DPS and crit, every...single...time.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Admittedly I haven't looked at these comparisons as well as, for example, sorcerer vs wizard, so I'm not too familiar with this argument. But what impact would it have if the Champion had not only increased threat range, but his crits also did 3x damage rather than X2 damage?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I'd point out though that the bonus attack would apply to all weapons, single, two handed and ranged. Only the two weapon fighter gets hosed. Not sure how to fix that.
If buffing the Champion's damage output is your intent, bonus action attacks aren't the best way to accomplish it. Something like a 4e-style slayer ability (1/short rest add 3d8 damage to an attack you make) would work, though it'd be counter to the design intent of the Champion - not having to manage resources.

As you say, it all depends on how far they lag. If the only way they can keep up is with two handed weapons, that's not groovy though either.
It doesn't exactly take a boatload of strategy to imagine that the more attacks you make, the more crits you can make. Anything that lets a champion attack more - bonus action attacks, standing in the front line and making OA's - means more crits. The archetype is flexible enough to let you trade more crits for more AC (have a shield) or more back-row ability (use a ranged weapon). If damage is your concern, whip out the light weapons. If AC is your concern, use a shield. If getting your face smashed is a concern, use a bow.

I do think they lag much farther behind than you do. Give a BM, a ranger with Collosus Slayer, a paladin and a champion the same combat stats and same weapons, the champion will always be dead last.

If that's true, then it's a trap option. Since the only things champions can do is deal damage, I would hope they're ahead of the pack, not at the back, considering all the other classes have other options in addition to dealing more damage.
This is mostly numberwang, though. The intent of the champion isn't to have numberwang, it's to be simple. If it is simple, and it pumps out enough damage, it's successful at its intent. Again, it's like ragging on the Bard because it's not as good as a Life cleric (or ragging on the Paladin because it's not as good as the Bard). I don't need to have the highest numbers to be good at what I do.

Maybe it doesn't provide that threshold of damage, I dunno, I haven't crunched the numbers. But saying "My damage isn't as big as a hunter ranger and the smiting paladin!" is not the same as saying "My damage isn't big enough." The first problem is just one of square-peg-round-hole. I don't make an assassin rogue and get sad because the thief is more mobile than I am; I don't make a tempest cleric and get annoyed because the valor bard is better at charming; I don't make a wild mage and sigh enviously at an abjurer's AC. It's entirely possible the Champion doesn't deal the most damage in the game, and that this is entirely what was intended, because the Champion is meant to be "simple and effective" - to do its job without fiddly bits. The intent is entirely likely to be easy to play, not to be a powerhouse (like the intent of the wild mage is to be wacky to play, not to be a powerhouse).

The second problem is more significant if it exists, but comparing damage between the classes doesn't make that case. D&D isn't numberwang, it's PvE, which means the context that matters is in monster fights, interaction challenges, and environmental challenges, not in simply comparing numberwang.
 

SmokingSkull

First Post
I don't get this whole thing, so I'll just simply say I disagree with the whole Champion is lacking argument. I'm currently playing one in my weekly campaign and I'm having a blast! I play on Roll20, and according to the logs at least I crit often, damn well near twice a fight if not more depending on luck. But sometimes I don't crit at all but I never let that get me down. Hell despite how mechanically lacking it is a fellow player in my group wants to MC into a Fighter and pick Champion because of my character!

But in the end what I have to say is anecdotal, if you feel the subclass leaves you wanting then that's how you feel, I know I don't feel that way. Now I'm off to get myself into character for my game starts in about 40 minutes.
 

Uller

Adventurer
But in the end what I have to say is anecdotal, if you feel the subclass leaves you wanting then that's how you feel, I know I don't feel that way. Now I'm off to get myself into character for my game starts in about 40 minutes.

We've seen this with several classes where on paper and in dpr analysis things seem out of whack but in actual game play it might not. We've had only a couple champion characters in our game and they certainly didn't seem lacking in damage. Mostly the players enjoyed playing them because their simplicity allowed them to focus on the game more and less on mechanics.

It probably depends somewhat on the DM and the style of the campaign. If there are lots of opportunities to rest and lots of one or two encounter adventuring days or very few opportunities to gain advantage then the BM becomea that much more attractive because he can pick when to use his bonus dice while the champion is left relying on luck. But if there are 5+ encounters with no rest and lots of chances at advantagemath favors the champion a lot
more.
 

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