D&D 5E Is This Odd?

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Yes, I think what is frequently forgotten in these discussions is that the players, regardless of the situation, are obligated to pursue the goals of play, that is, everyone having fun and contributing to the creation of an exciting memorable tale. It's spelled out right in the rules.

Whether you know the module backwards and forwards or not, your decisions as a player still have to achieve those goals. Players with exact knowledge of the module can, knowing they have this responsibility, make great decisions that support the goals of play. It's the players that don't know they have this responsibility that are the issue, but that is a separate matter from simply having knowledge about elements of the module.

Well put. Thanks for taking the time to answer. If I may summarize to make sure I understand: access to information isn't a problem; spoiling of fun at the table is a problem (be it by that information or otherwise).

Okay, I can get behind what you are saying.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
I was kind of puzzled as it was phrased like "should players have access to the MM".

Now I do remember when I was young I read the monsters but not in the middle of combat. I said something like it's not really kosher but yeah players can use it for things like wildshape, summoning etc.

Own and read the MM? Sure. Read it in the middle of combat? Completely off the mark. This creates a major problem of DM agency being questioned (with less-familiar circles). I don't think I've run a monster 'by the book' in over a decade, unless I need to whip up a quick random encounter the players have created themselves. I make the monsters ahead of time, and alter their abilities to my needs, as appropriate. With my long-term group, this isn't an issue - they understand that what they know about a monster is irrelevant aside from the most basic of details. In public play, players whipping out the book and saying ignorant things such as "That attack only has a DC of 16!" or "That creature doesn't have access to that spell!", is a problem. I've experienced it, and encountered it even moreso happening to newer DMs trying their hand at being creative.

So I just politely ask public players to leave their MMs closed, and inform them ahead of time that I use my own versions of several creatures, and that the books won't help them anyway. Do I care if the player knows Silver hurts Lycanthropes or Bludgeoning works better on Skeletons? Not at all - just know it, don't open the book. This touches a different aspect of my games though, anyway - no phones or tablets active at the table, though leaving them on and checking for emergency calls/texts is acceptable (we offer free printing of digital character sheets at our FLGS for that reason as well), books only open if you absolutely need to reference something you wrote down half-assed, and everyone paying attention to the whole game, not just their own personal bubble of interaction.

As a second point, there is also an element of campaign-specific information to be taken into account. When I play something darker and grittier, a gothic campaign, low magic, no magic - anything of the sort, players -must- be able to roleplay a lack of knowledge of certain things, no matter how much they've read books and fiction about certain monster types. In those settings, however, the parties are usually smart enough to contact some retired Witch Hunter or library and research legends of what they hunt in particular, and that's just part of the experience.
 
Last edited:

Oofta

Legend
Personally I find people reading the MM annoying for a few reasons, but the primary one is that it breaks the immersion of the players in the game. Instead of fighting a large green skinned humanoid monster with ropey muscles and rubbery skin they're now fighting a pile of stats.


I've had people go so far as to tell others how many HP the monster has left, what special powers they have, what I need to roll to recharge abilities and so on. It's annoying.


On the other hand, if trolls are common in my campaign (they are reasonably common) then the PCs will know that you need fire/acid to kill them whether or not the players know.


But the other side of it is that I tweak monsters all the time. So yes that orc gets advantage because it's berserking and attacking recklessly, don't ask me why it's getting advantage. I've upped the CR for my calculation if I think it was necessary. I have an extra legendary save? Yep, I've decided that because we have 7 people at the table and legendary saves seem to be balanced for a table of 4. So on and so forth.


On the other hand when I'm playing if I know what a monster is, I may ask what I know about that monster but other than that I'll play dumb. Or, well my PC will play dumb. It's no different than my barbarian PC from the hinterlands not knowing secrets about Waterdeep even though I just read the campaign guide.
 

Harzel

Adventurer
Personally I find people reading the MM annoying for a few reasons, but the primary one is that it breaks the immersion of the players in the game. Instead of fighting a large green skinned humanoid monster with ropey muscles and rubbery skin they're now fighting a pile of stats.

I think this is a good articulation of the main reason that I have a negative emotional reaction to people dragging stat and/or trait info from the MM into play (whether they read it at the table or not). Nevertheless, I have told my players that they are free to access the information in the MM, and, since most in my group don't spend a lot of time on the game outside of sessions, I don't frown at them if they read it at the table. I have two reasons for this:
1) I do not want to, nor do I think I should be policing the player knowledge vs. character knowledge issue. I personally think it is more fun to "keep them separate" (although there's certainly a lot more that can be and has been said about exactly what one might/could reasonably mean by that), but I'm not going to try to control other people's thinking.
2) In order to facilitate the players making appropriately informed decisions, I feel that there needs to be a stand-in for what the PCs would know (in this case about monsters) that the players do not. The MM is highly imperfect for this purpose and I wish there were a publication that had reasonable PC monster info couched in terms that PCs might actually know. However, producing such a tome is so far down my priority list that I do not foresee myself ever getting around to it, so the MM has to do.

In any case, pretty much every time anyone pulls out the MM at the table or refers to knowledge therefrom, I issue my standard reminder that they should look at the MM as a collection of folklore - it contains a lot of good guidance, but it is frequently incomplete or incorrect about details. I think this is beginning to sink in, although one player in particular seems vulnerable to begin seduced by the notion that the MM is a rule book with the same standing as the PH (despite my reminders and repeatedly encountering evidence to the contrary).

And as for my negative visceral reaction - that just has to go on the pile of other thoughts and reactions that I choose not to act on because I think the consequences of doing so are not, on the whole, beneficial.
 

This touches a different aspect of my games though, anyway - no phones or tablets active at the table, though leaving them on and checking for emergency calls/texts is acceptable (we offer free printing of digital character sheets at our FLGS for that reason as well), books only open if you absolutely need to reference something you wrote down half-assed, and everyone paying attention to the whole game, not just their own personal bubble of interaction.

Love that you offer free printing!

I had a player actually on his laptop at the table, right next to me, playing Civilization. I stopped our game and said calmly "Are you really playing Civilization right now while we're in the middle of D&D?" A few hems and haws about how he started it up before the session began, some chuckling incredulity from another player "and right next to the DM!", and the offender sheepishly closed the computer and we got back to business.

This subject needs its own thread...
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top