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D&D 5E What is/should be the Ranger's "thing"?

Tony Vargas

Legend
That does not sound right, at all. Are you condensing that or something? I recall, very vividly, that the DM had an option to expand the list o fmonsters that the Ranger applied his bonus to the 'giant class,' and that sounds like the expanded list. Looks like I'll be cracking my 1e books again...
 

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Gansk

Explorer
There's many fantasy rangers and the ranger class ideally should be able to approximate most of them.

I am curious if there are really many rangers depicted in literature. Many months ago I tried to design a ranger class for the DCC RPG and I googled "Rangers in literature".

I really didn't find anything interesting other a ranger based on a PC game that could fabricate potions. Maybe that was from the Witcher setting, I don't remember.

So can someone provide a list of rangers in fantasy literature that can be referenced for properties that can be used in a D&D class?

If most of them were created after the D&D ranger, wouldn't they be referring back to the D&D archetype and thus basically useless for designing a class?
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
That does not sound right, at all. Are you condensing that or something? I recall, very vividly, that the DM had an option to expand the list o fmonsters that the Ranger applied his bonus to the 'giant class,' and that sounds like the expanded list. Looks like I'll be cracking my 1e books again...

As well you should. Because there is nothing about expanding the list. The list of creatures is exactly what the 1e "Giant Class" was, as noted by several, later epanded in 1e's UA to include many more creatures. Your...opinion of what was "fact" sounds like a kind-hearted houserule. It was not in the 1e PHB ranger's entry.
 

Staffan

Legend
That does not sound right, at all. Are you condensing that or something? I recall, very vividly, that the DM had an option to expand the list o fmonsters that the Ranger applied his bonus to the 'giant class,' and that sounds like the expanded list. Looks like I'll be cracking my 1e books again...

No, I am quoting it straight from the Player's Handbook. The DMG and/or UA may have had stuff about expanding the list, but that's what's in the PHB.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Actually, the option to add more humanoid creatures to the ranger's list, at the DM's discretion, as made sense for the campaign/story sounds like the kind of optional expansion that would have fallen somewhere in Unearthed Arcana. Maybe it was in there...I really can't be bothered to check though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
... sounds like a kind-hearted houserule. .
The DMG and/or UA may have had stuff about expanding the list, but that's what's in the PHB.
I definitely remember reading the rule about expanding the list in a book, not a variant, so maybe it was as late as UA... (I hope not: I know where my PH & DMG are, UA I'll have to dig through some boxes again...)
It's funny how often 1e 'precedents' come up in these discussions.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I am curious if there are really many rangers depicted in literature. Many months ago I tried to design a ranger class for the DCC RPG and I googled "Rangers in literature".

I really didn't find anything interesting
They probably wouldn't be called 'rangers.'


So can someone provide a list of rangers in fantasy literature that can be referenced for properties that can be used in a D&D class?
Aragorn is the usual cited example. Robin Hood gets mentioned a lot, even though it's not really fantasy.

You might try:

tracker, guide, wilderness, and/or scout along with a genre like 'high fantasy' and various synonyms for archer or warrior.

If most of them were created after the D&D ranger, wouldn't they be referring back to the D&D archetype and thus basically useless for designing a class?
Yes. D&D falls into the trap of self-reference a lot, and the resultant tautologies are worthless.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Well, nothing I can find in UA says anything bout it. There is the "expanded giant class list" which adds in goblinoid/"giant class" critters from FF and MM2.

So, in addition to the [correct] quote from [MENTION=907]Staffan[/MENTION], UA adds: cyclopskin, dune stalker, flind, gibberling, grimlock, meazel, norker, ogrillon, quaggoth, tasloi, and xvarts.

Nothing about DMs adding things beyond this list, though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Well, nothing I can find in UA says anything bout it. There is the "expanded giant class list" which adds in goblinoid/"giant class" critters from FF and MM2.....
I suppose that might have been it, but it still doesn't sound like what I'm remembering. (One of the problems with getting old, stuff like this drives me crazy.)

Edit: Damn, I just realized what I did: I was remembering a rule to substitute 'giant class' for 'giant' under something else, entirely... probably the old Hammer of Thunderbolts, though I'm really not trusting myself, right now. ;(
 
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There are two things wrong with this assumption. First, we can really only assume that the fluff is the way it is because EGG wanted the fluff to be that way. If he had wanted the mechanics to adhere more closely to the fluff, we can only assume he would have so emended them. It is incorrect to assume authorial intent for the Ranger's design can be gleaned from that one sentence. Second, EGG didn't write the 1E Ranger. You might say he converted or adapted it. If you compare it to Joe Fischer's Ranger in The Strategic Review, #2 it is, mechanically speaking, nearly identical. The fluff text, however, is not present in Fischer's article, by which it is made obvious that the mechanics of the class were designed first, and that Gygax added the fluff as an afterthought.

I see the connection. My point was that having access to spells of any sort isn't the same as being skilled in woodcraft as a mundane woodsman is. I do recognize, however, that EGG's changing of the Ranger's cleric spells to druid spells and the addition of the flavor text mentioned above seem to be of a piece. My opinion is that Gygax made these changes to distinguish the 1E Ranger from the SR Ranger, possibly for IP reasons. He went even further in this direction with the requirement in UA that the Ranger start with the bow as one of its weapon proficiencies. His intention seems to have been to overlay the woodsman theme onto Fischer's template. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that in UA, while bringing the Ranger into further accord with the theme, Gygax also enlarged the giant class to include every humanoid that had been added to the game since the PH had come out.
I stand corrected on the pedigree of the writing.

But doesn't this actually just reinforce my position? Gygax saw this combination of abilities and thought, not "favored enemy guy", but "woodsman".

But my position isn't that the Ranger shouldn't have abilities that overlap with those of other classes. My position is that the Ranger should also have something cool it can do that other classes don't.
That's my position too. I simply don't believe it has to be favored enemy -- and I see reasons why it shouldn't.

Yes, but as you say this is all situationally dependent on being in the favored terrain. The Rogue's expertise has no such limitations. Outside of its favored terrain how is the Ranger's proficiency in Survival any better than the Fighter's?
Which is why I recommend expanding the coverage of the Natural Explorer ability.

My preference would be that favored terrain remain special for individual Rangers. Having the benefits be always on would seem to dilute the flavor of one particular choice or another.
There's an idea that's been floated a few times in this thread that favored terrain (as well as favored enemy) give unique abilities that are dependent on the choice of terrain, but "always on" once chosen. For instance, a climb speed if your favored terrain is forest or a swim speed if it's swamp. You picked up these particular talents in your homeland, but they're applicable anywhere. This could differentiate characters. Then just give the class the Natural Explorer benefits flexibly or permanently as a baseline level of wilderness competence. Is that appealing to you?

Right, and I think you're on to something here. Maybe a bonus to surprise creatures that you've successfully tracked?
The consensus among the "change favored enemy" crowd in this thread seems to be converging on something like hunter's mark. Activating it by tracking and/or unseen observation rather than just a swift action seems very flavorful to me.

My point was that I don't see FE as being nearly as problematic as you seem to. The way I described FE up-thread is in line with my own aesthetic preferences, and I don't expect everyone else to rationalize their Ranger's FE the same way I do. My comments were intended to be along the lines of, "Flavor to suit your own preferences," as I see that many are quite comfortable re-fluffing their characters in one way or another.
I believe that, rather than give players an oddball ability and ask them to re-fluff it, it's better for the game not to give players an oddball ability in the first place, but rather give them abilities they'd expect a priori.

Not if you recognize, as I'm sure you did above, that the Rogue's "thing" is Sneak Attack. I agree that the Ranger should have something like that.
I think we're reaching an understanding.

I should say that I don't think the rogue's "thing" is Sneak Attack per se. The rogue's "thing" is being tricky; Sneak Attack arises as the most important natural expression of that theme in a game as combat-focused as D&D. And I think the same applies to the ranger. Its "thing" is survival; now the game designers have to find an ability that naturally expresses that theme in a way such as to make the ranger's combat encounters interesting.
 

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