Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Is it really any bigger than what you've proposed?
D&D 5E At my table: Hexblade removed, Pact of the Blade enhanced
Irda Ranger
First Post
Yes?
I'm curious, looking at the hexblade in a bubble, not comparing it to other warlock patrons, do you think it is overpowered?
Next, still in a bubble, if the hexblade had the changes I proposed where the abilities only work with weapon attacks, do you think it is overpowered?
Lastly, do you think the original patrons are under powered?
To answer those myself, I think the hexblade is only overpowered because it works with eldritch blast. I think making it weapon attacks only brings it in line with where it should be.
I don't think the original patrons are under powered, unless you are trying to make a blade pact melee warlock. Each of the original patrons had great flavor and abilities that are worth taking over a simple armor increase. Again, the hexblade becomes an issue when its abilities work with eldritch blast, because now they outshine the original patrons abilities.
In summary, if your don't think the class is overpowered in at least one version, then why is it a problem for the class to get more abilities from its patron if it makes the class work?
This is brilliantly simple. I think we can tweak it just a bit and polish it off.
Pact Blade: Gain the Eldritch Blast cantrip. If you already have it, gain 1 cantrip of your choice. When using Eldritch Blast, you can instead form the energy into a blade shaped as you desire. The spell works as normal, except functions as a melee spell attack with a range of touch.
I added in the extra cantrip note that I think is important. This adds just a little flavor on the blade shape (some people just really like that aspect of the current blade pact, and while there is nothing to stop anyone from doing that, calling it out can spark the imagination a bit). Lastly, by changing it to a melee spell attack it ensures there is no other wonkiness from a ranged attack in melee that we just aren't thinking about. This is a true melee attack, but all the bonuses and penalties that entails.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
[MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] I'm sorry, but we can't really look at any class or ability in a bubble. Any bubble is artificial, because each class and ability is interconnected. If we are to believe a concept of mechanical balance exists, then it seems to me a kind of fallacy to attempt to look at any particular class or ability in a bubble. Alternatively, if a bubble were to exist, anything you put in that bubble is balanced. Balance, power level, underpowered, overpowered, these are terms that identify a relationship between things. If there is a bubble, there is no relationship. A thing just is.
As to conceptual execution, there is nothing that says an Eldritch Knight Fighter with the right amount of reskinning could represent a Hexblade Warlock. So we have to look at what you are trying to do. Are you trying to turn the Warlock into a fighter? What is it about the Warlock mechanics that you want for your frontline martial character. Is it Hex? Or eldritch blast? You can gain those with the Magic Initiate feat. Is it short rest spell slots? You could probably do that more easily with a Fighter and create an archetype similar to the Eldritch Knight.
No other class can use a spellcasting stat for melee or ranged weapon attacks. Clerics can't. Druids can't without Shillelagh. What makes the Warlock different in this aspect?
As for the original patrons, no I do not think they are underpowered. I think they represent a good standard. Perhaps some aspects of the warlock should be class features rather than "choices" because cantrips such as eldritch blast and spells such as hex are so integral to the class balance that not taking them can reduce the class's balance in comparison to other spellcaster classes.
But also, in response to what you state regarding the Hexblade, Pact of the Blade, and the other Patrons, I don't believe there should be an idea that a Pact of the Blade character MUST choose a Hexblade Patron to be viable. If this is the idea, then these become trap options. A Hexblade should be viable with any Pact, just as any Patron should be viable with Pact of the Blade. Perhaps some subtle synergy exists between certain combinations. But it should not be such that it weakens the character to take predetermined choices to make it work. If that were the case, then just combine the Patron and Pact into a single archetype chosen at level 1 similar to the Sorcerer archetypes.
Even if using only melee weapons, the Hexblade as written offers too much. It seems to have been created in response to poor design elements in the original presentation of the Warlock. To me, the Hexblade identifies 3 problems with the Warlock.
1) Lack of armor options for Warlocks wishing to pursue melee specialty.
2) Options for attack that make Warlocks worthwhile to use in melee
3) That Hex as a spell failed to achieve what it conceptually was supposed to, and that Hex as a class feature works better.
Hexblade as a Patron can offer armor. This would benefit any Pact. It should not be limited to benefiting the Pact of the Blade, or benefiting it such that Pact of the Blade is only viable with the Hexblade patron.
Additionally, the eldritch blast is already a iconic cantrip for the warlock. It is THE defining feature of the warlock, as the warlock began in 3.5E as the only caster that could blast every single round. Eldritch Blast makes the warlock what it is. Using that as the basis for Pact of the Blade, then, makes sense. Allowing you to use it in melee gives the same benefits of a fighter. And just as a fighter can improve their prowess with fighting styles, feats, and magic weapons, the warlock can improve their Eldritch Blast as Pact Weapon with invocations. However, because it is a spell, it does not mix with actual magic weapons or feats (outside of spell sniper maybe). This also makes sense, because a warlock as more opportunities to utilize invocations to improve their eldritch blast.
And applying Hex as class feature rather than spell can slightly bump every archetype up to place them in relative balance with Druids, Bards, and Clerics (comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers is not quite right based on my personal feel).
[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] That could work. I'd say you still should have flexibility to use either the ranged or melee version. But maybe just that while you are engaged in melee if you try the ranged version to attack some else at a distance it would still be at disadvantage. Essentially make it two cantrips. Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Weapon.
As to conceptual execution, there is nothing that says an Eldritch Knight Fighter with the right amount of reskinning could represent a Hexblade Warlock. So we have to look at what you are trying to do. Are you trying to turn the Warlock into a fighter? What is it about the Warlock mechanics that you want for your frontline martial character. Is it Hex? Or eldritch blast? You can gain those with the Magic Initiate feat. Is it short rest spell slots? You could probably do that more easily with a Fighter and create an archetype similar to the Eldritch Knight.
No other class can use a spellcasting stat for melee or ranged weapon attacks. Clerics can't. Druids can't without Shillelagh. What makes the Warlock different in this aspect?
As for the original patrons, no I do not think they are underpowered. I think they represent a good standard. Perhaps some aspects of the warlock should be class features rather than "choices" because cantrips such as eldritch blast and spells such as hex are so integral to the class balance that not taking them can reduce the class's balance in comparison to other spellcaster classes.
But also, in response to what you state regarding the Hexblade, Pact of the Blade, and the other Patrons, I don't believe there should be an idea that a Pact of the Blade character MUST choose a Hexblade Patron to be viable. If this is the idea, then these become trap options. A Hexblade should be viable with any Pact, just as any Patron should be viable with Pact of the Blade. Perhaps some subtle synergy exists between certain combinations. But it should not be such that it weakens the character to take predetermined choices to make it work. If that were the case, then just combine the Patron and Pact into a single archetype chosen at level 1 similar to the Sorcerer archetypes.
Even if using only melee weapons, the Hexblade as written offers too much. It seems to have been created in response to poor design elements in the original presentation of the Warlock. To me, the Hexblade identifies 3 problems with the Warlock.
1) Lack of armor options for Warlocks wishing to pursue melee specialty.
2) Options for attack that make Warlocks worthwhile to use in melee
3) That Hex as a spell failed to achieve what it conceptually was supposed to, and that Hex as a class feature works better.
Hexblade as a Patron can offer armor. This would benefit any Pact. It should not be limited to benefiting the Pact of the Blade, or benefiting it such that Pact of the Blade is only viable with the Hexblade patron.
Additionally, the eldritch blast is already a iconic cantrip for the warlock. It is THE defining feature of the warlock, as the warlock began in 3.5E as the only caster that could blast every single round. Eldritch Blast makes the warlock what it is. Using that as the basis for Pact of the Blade, then, makes sense. Allowing you to use it in melee gives the same benefits of a fighter. And just as a fighter can improve their prowess with fighting styles, feats, and magic weapons, the warlock can improve their Eldritch Blast as Pact Weapon with invocations. However, because it is a spell, it does not mix with actual magic weapons or feats (outside of spell sniper maybe). This also makes sense, because a warlock as more opportunities to utilize invocations to improve their eldritch blast.
And applying Hex as class feature rather than spell can slightly bump every archetype up to place them in relative balance with Druids, Bards, and Clerics (comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers is not quite right based on my personal feel).
[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] That could work. I'd say you still should have flexibility to use either the ranged or melee version. But maybe just that while you are engaged in melee if you try the ranged version to attack some else at a distance it would still be at disadvantage. Essentially make it two cantrips. Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Weapon.
I'll have a longer response later, but for now I just wanted to clarify, when i said bubble, i meant a bubble from the other patrons, not the other 5E classes. Is the hexblade balanced versus other classes or overpowered? People seem to think it's hands down better then the other patrons as written, which I agree with, and proposed a tweak. But is it overpowered in the big picture was the point I was getting at.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
[MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] I think that any tweak to the Hexblade that does not include cutting out the curse and use of Charisma for weapons is insufficient. Taken to level 20? Sure, all of that is small potatoes. But in mid-range games where most play happens, the Hexblade offers simultaneously far broader and stronger options than the other patrons. A Hexblade starts out hitting harder, able to take more punishment, and more combat effective. Meanwhile, the Great Old One gets some telepathy which can be useful for sneaking or hiding conversations within social interactions to a degree, but it has no ability to alter thoughts or be effective in dealing psychic damage or control over opponents. That warlock has to get much higher in level to start getting good at what it does. The Archefey gets a once per rest ability. Yes, it is exactly what its supposed to be with charm/fright. But the proficiency a Hexblade has in combat dwarfs the proficiency an Archfey does in charm/fright or battlefield control. And the Hexblade outright steals the Fiend ability, while improving upon it.
So yes. You have offered a tweak, but I would say it does not go far enough to bring the Hexblade in line with the other patrons. The other patrons have their particular niches and spheres of influence. But they lack the proficiency and power that the Hexbalde outright starts with.
So yes. You have offered a tweak, but I would say it does not go far enough to bring the Hexblade in line with the other patrons. The other patrons have their particular niches and spheres of influence. But they lack the proficiency and power that the Hexbalde outright starts with.
This was my intention, so it might need some rewriting. Effectively when the bladelock casts eldritch blast, they can cast it like normal....or change it into a melee spell attack version. So its like having 2 cantrips, but you gain any benefit from eldritch blast addons to your "blade" as well.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I think something like this might work.
Pact of the Blade
When you take this pact, you gain the Eldritch Blast cantrip. If you already have Eldritch Blast, you may choose a different cantrip from the Warlock Spell list.
From now on, when you use the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you can choose to use it as a melee spell attack with a range of 5ft for each ray normally created by the spell. Using the cantrip in this way allows you to use Eldritch Blast while engaged in melee without penalty. You continue to be penalized as normal if you use the ranged version of this cantrip while within 5ft of an enemy who is not incapacitated.
Each time you cast this cantrip, you can choose whether you cast the ranged version or melee version of the spell.
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I think this makes it clear that you can use melee or ranged, but not both with each casting of the spell. Though I think my language is a little more specific and rules-lawyer-ish than 5e tends to be.
Additionally, I like giving the cantrip a range of 5' rather than touch. I think that prevents most characters that find a way to benefit from reach (I think the Hobgoblin or Bugbear in Volo's Guide can increase their reach 5'). But it also allows this version of Eldritch Blast to benefit from Spell Sniper. I figure if you are willing to invest a feat, that additional 5' is ok.
Pact of the Blade
When you take this pact, you gain the Eldritch Blast cantrip. If you already have Eldritch Blast, you may choose a different cantrip from the Warlock Spell list.
From now on, when you use the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you can choose to use it as a melee spell attack with a range of 5ft for each ray normally created by the spell. Using the cantrip in this way allows you to use Eldritch Blast while engaged in melee without penalty. You continue to be penalized as normal if you use the ranged version of this cantrip while within 5ft of an enemy who is not incapacitated.
Each time you cast this cantrip, you can choose whether you cast the ranged version or melee version of the spell.
******
I think this makes it clear that you can use melee or ranged, but not both with each casting of the spell. Though I think my language is a little more specific and rules-lawyer-ish than 5e tends to be.
Additionally, I like giving the cantrip a range of 5' rather than touch. I think that prevents most characters that find a way to benefit from reach (I think the Hobgoblin or Bugbear in Volo's Guide can increase their reach 5'). But it also allows this version of Eldritch Blast to benefit from Spell Sniper. I figure if you are willing to invest a feat, that additional 5' is ok.
@Stalker0, @Hawk Diesel, I really like the eldritch blast modification for pact of the blade. I have often thought that the blade'locks lacked a decent incentive to actually be in melee combat with all the sweet benefits of EB blast just hanging there, and thought there aught to be an equivalent melee cantrip for pact of the blade. Some more flavor text that explains how the cantrip takes the form of a melee weapon of the caster's choice (but does not change the damage), and you're good to go.
This accomplishes a few things:
1) the melee spell attack does not require MAD to be competent in melee (though decent DEX, and to a lesser degree STR, are still desireable).
2) with the EB scaling number of bolts nicely gives the blade'lock scaling number of attacks, there by eliminating the need to take the 'additional attack' invocation. Perhaps and armor proficiency invocation could replace it?
3) Agonizing Blast and Repelling blast invocations are options to make the blade'lock's melee attacks improve to over time if they are willing to invest in it. (maybe the additional range invocation makes the range 10'?)
4) The cost is no magic weapons (unless the character wants to forgo use of the above benefits), no Green Flame Blade or Booming blade. This differentiates them from other gish archetypes and does not give them everything
I kind of like it.
This accomplishes a few things:
1) the melee spell attack does not require MAD to be competent in melee (though decent DEX, and to a lesser degree STR, are still desireable).
2) with the EB scaling number of bolts nicely gives the blade'lock scaling number of attacks, there by eliminating the need to take the 'additional attack' invocation. Perhaps and armor proficiency invocation could replace it?
3) Agonizing Blast and Repelling blast invocations are options to make the blade'lock's melee attacks improve to over time if they are willing to invest in it. (maybe the additional range invocation makes the range 10'?)
4) The cost is no magic weapons (unless the character wants to forgo use of the above benefits), no Green Flame Blade or Booming blade. This differentiates them from other gish archetypes and does not give them everything
I kind of like it.
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