D&D 5E At my table: Hexblade removed, Pact of the Blade enhanced

[Hawk Diesel]

Looking at the Pact Boons, I do agree that the Pact of the Blade is a bit lacking. But lets break down what each Pact does.

Pact of the Chain grants a free familiar that is more powerful (up to CR 1) and can take the attack action in place of one of your attacks. This grants some scouting and potential other benefits from the familiar's specific attack capabilities, as well as potential defensive abilities (as from the Pseudodragon).

Pact of the Tome grants an improved version of the Ritual Caster feat, plus 3 cantrips from any class that count as Warlock cantrips.

Pact of the Blade effectively gives you proficiency in Martial Weapons (though limited to melee weapons unless you bond to a magic ranged weapon). You are effectively always 1 action away from being armed, and it is always considered magic.

From this perspective, Pact of the Blade is a bit lacking. Pact of the Tome is roughly equivalent to about 2 feats (Ritual Caster + Magic Initiate). Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Blade are more difficult to break down in terms of feat cost. Depending on the familiar chosen, Pact of the Chain could be roughly equivalent to 1.5 feats (Half of Magic Initiate, another half for the improved familiar selection, and another half to allow it to attack using your attack action). Pact of the Blade is worth probably about 1 feat (half for Weapon Master, and another half feat for bonded weapons being counted as magic and being able to summon them). Of course, others may weight these values differently.

So from my vantage point, both Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Blade could use a slight bump. I'd say probably giving the Voice of the Chain Master invocation for free. That would bring it up to roughly 2 feats worth of value.

As for Pact of the Blade, it feels like you have design space for something equivalent to a full feat. Granting medium armor and shield proficiency could bump it up by half a feat. I'd say granting green-flame blade and booming blade cantrips would settle the other half of the feat. Allowing the Bladelock to use Charisma in place of Strength or Dexterity is probably worth a full feat on its own, so you couldn't do that AND grant the armor/shield proficiency. An alternative option that is probably worth a feat would be allowing you to make an attack as a bonus action when you use that attack action. So I'm thinking adding the following in some combination would be worth considering in total values equaling 1 feat to Pact of the Blade would not be unreasonable:

-Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency (Half Feat)
-Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade (Half Feat)
-Use Charisma in place of Strength or Dexterity (Full Feat)
-Able to make an attack as a bonus action with your Pact Weapon when you take the Attack action with your Pact Weapon (Full Feat)

EDIT: Whoops! I messed up. When I read over Pact of the Tome, I realized I was including the invocation Book of Ancient Secrets as if it was included in Pact of the Tome. That's what happens when you assume rather than carefully read over what you are arguing.

In this case, it makes the Pacts all roughly equivalent. Pact of the Chain actually comes out a little ahead of the others. Without the Ritual Caster aspect of Pact of the Tome, it really is worth only one feat (Magic Initiate), and Pact of the Blade is also only worth about one feat (Half of Weapon Master + another Half for counting as magic and being able to summon with an action). I still say Pact of the Chain is probably worth 1.5 feats based on its power and the familiars you can use. This means Pact of the Tome could potentially get a half feat bump, though I'm not sure what that could be. If you were to do that, then theoretically, you could grant the Pact of the Blade either Medium Armor Proficiency and Shields (worth half a feat) or Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade (worth half of a feat), but not both. And definitely not using Charisma in place of Strength/Dexterity or the Bonus Attack Action I suggested earlier.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I'll also say, not comparing sub classes against each other doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced. Just that you can't measure each sub class against each other in numbers of abilities given, but in what the end result is. Just because a hexblade gets 5 features at 1, vs a fiend getting 2 features at 1, if the end result is two subclasses that are balanced against each other at what they do, they should be fine.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. Especially since the Hexblade gets armor, shields, martial weapons, and an ability that not only replicates the Fiend Patron, but also increases crit threat range and increased damage. Why would anyone choose to use a Fiend Patron if Hexblade is available? There is often a saying that if a new option makes other obsolete, it is probably overpowered or otherwise unbalanced.

Let's compare. Hexblade gets improved armor and weapon proficiencies and can use their spellcasting stat for melee attacks and damage. IN ADDITION, they get a once per short rest version of Super Hex that doesn't even require concentration. Are you honestly telling me this is ok in comparison with a Great Old One that gets telepathy or the Archfey that gets a single ability once per short rest?

If we are trying to create balance so that all options are usable, then we do have to consider what the archetype is trying to accomplish, but also how well they do against each other. If Great Old one gets telepathy and Archfey gets a short rest charm/fright, these abilities need to stack up against the Hexblade. Either the Hexblade gets the armor and weapon proficiencies, or they get the short rest Super Hex (minus the ability that is directly stolen from the Fiend Patron), or they get Charisma to attacks and damage on melee attacks. Any one of those abilities could be argued to roughly stack against its Patron Peers. All of them combined just don't balance.

 

[Stalker0]

This has been an interesting debate so far.

I do agree with the premise that the Hex Blade is designed as a melee gish, and as such, has to be able to perform that roll. That is the minimum starting place.

I think the Valor Bard is a good place to start for a full caster gish class. So what do they get?

1) Proficiency: Medium Armor, all martial weapons, and Shields. Hexblades get it at level 1 while the bard gets it at level 3, depending on your game that may make a lot of difference or not much of one.

2) Offense: The bard can add their inspiration die to other people's damage as a bonus action, roughly 4 times a short rest. So +3.5-4.5 damage, which does scale a bit towards the higher level. They also get an extra attack at 6th.

Hexblades get charisma to attack and damage instead of dex (because like the bard I would assume dex for them with their medium armor). Extra crit range, and a straight proficiency bonus to damage against their cursed target. They also can make use of the hex spell if they choose. They get the spectre at 6th to effectively add in their extra attack. I would say the spectre is comparable to an extra attack...it likely hits more easily over all and does a bit less damage...but also is easy to kill and takes big penalties in sunlight.

3) Defense: Bards have healing magic and various defensive spells (like heroism). Hexs get the temp hp for a kill. Hexs get a nice jump at 10th, getting a 50% miss chance against one attack.


My General thought is that the classes look decently comparable. The bard seems more consistent, the hex at its strongest is stronger, but is also weaker on its lows. But neither look crazy compared to the other. If there is a major concern about the hex spell combining in...you could just drop the hex blade's curse and go with:

Hexblade's Curse: Once short or long rest, the hexblade can cast a special version of Hex. This version doesn't require concentration, but the damage bonus only applies to melee attacks.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] I see where you are going with your analysis. If you are comparing Valor Bard with Hexblade, the argument is reasonable. However, a Lore Bard gains abilities equivalent to the increased martial prowess of the Valor Bard. Lore Bard gains additional skill proficiencies to balance the Valor Bard's armor and weapon proficiencies, and also gains a new way to utilize Bardic Inspiration just as the Valorous Bard is able to add theirs to attack and damage.

The same balances are not present between the Hexblade and the other patron options. And so either all other patrons need to be adjusted to put them on the same playing field as the Hexblade, or the Hexblade is too powerful as a patron. I tend to believe the latter.

 

[Stalker0]

[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] I see where you are going with your analysis. If you are comparing Valor Bard with Hexblade, the argument is reasonable. However, a Lore Bard gains abilities equivalent to the increased martial prowess of the Valor Bard. Lore Bard gains additional skill proficiencies to balance the Valor Bard's armor and weapon proficiencies, and also gains a new way to utilize Bardic Inspiration just as the Valorous Bard is able to add theirs to attack and damage.

The same balances are not present between the Hexblade and the other patron options. And so either all other patrons need to be adjusted to put them on the same playing field as the Hexblade, or the Hexblade is too powerful as a patron. I tend to believe the latter.

This is a fair point as well.

We could consider this option: Weaken the Hex Blade, shift some of its powers into an invocation. The hex blade patron by itself is not enough to make a truely effective gish, but we can have an invocation that bridges the gap. I think that might be the best for the OP's original intent, lets absorb a bit of Hexblade power into the Pact of the Blade...and then create an invocation that allows the full gish archetype to come about.


So here are the changes I would recommend:

1) Pact of the Blade (we add): You may also use your charisma for attack and damage instead of strength or dex.

2) Hex Spell (we add): If the attack is with a pact weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the damage.

3) Armor of Shadows Invocation (we add): Your AC increases by 1 when using this invocation. (see effectively AC 14+dex).


With those changes, you get the spirit of the hex blade's weapon merged with the pact blade. Hex takes care of the bonus damage but in a way that favors the melee gish without further increasing EB effects. We already have an armor invocation, so with this change it handles the defensive needs without requiring new armor proficiency.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Great thread. I am not a fan of the Hexblade patron. I'm a big fan of making the Blade Pact "the real choice for gish Warlocks", and not require that everyone who wants to be an effective gish character take the Hexblade patron. I'd much rather that WotC released a revised Warlock that fixed the blade pact (and that any new patrons work equally well with all three Pacts).

I really like the idea of using Eldritch Blast as a melee attack and calling it a day. Basically, if the Pact of the Tome is the Magic Initiate feat, the Pact of the Blade is the Warcaster Feat. That's honestly the simplest fix, and if your game allows Feats it's something you could do at 4th level anyway.

I also like the idea of allowing Warlocks the full range of combat styles. There's no reason to limit them to two-handed or dueling.

Here's my suggestion:

Pact of the Blade
As an action when you cast Eldritch Blast, instead of making an attack you create weapons and shields of pure force in your empty hands. You are considered proficient in their use and to be armed with a melee weapon for all purposes, including making Opportunity Attacks and for Two-Weapon Fighting. The weapons can take the forms of your choice each time you cast the spell, and they have all the Properties of such weapon. The shield and weapons disappear if they leaves your hand for more than 1 minute, or if you dismiss them (as a free action) or fall unconscious. As long as you hold the weapons, your Eldritch Blast cantrip is a melee spell attack with a range of touch (including Reach, if the form you've chosen has that Property) and damage determined by the weapons you have chosen. You can make one melee spell attack at 3rd level, two at 5th, three at 11th, and four at 17th. As long as you are holding your pact weapon you have advantage on Constitution saving throws to maintain Concentration.

I'd leave it at that. No need to add proficiency in armor. You can decide whether to rely on Armor of Shadows and Armor of Agathys or dip into Fighter or Paladin for Heavy Armor.

In this world, the Thirsting Blade Invocation is just removed. If you bond to magic weapon, you can summon it, but it does its normal damage type not force damage.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=1003]Irda Ranger[/MENTION] I think you are close, but there is an even simpler and more elegant answer to this dilemma.

There is a very simple fix to Pact of the Blade that I think everyone has been missing. Pact of the Blade does not and should not allow a Warlock to create a shadow weapon. I would change it as the following:

Pact of the Blade
If you don't already have the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you gain it when you take this pact. In addition, when you use this cantrip while engaged in melee, you may do so without disadvantage as normal.

Doing this does a few things.

PRO
1) The actual shape of the Eldritch Blast can be described as any weapon you want.
2) The Eldritch Blast is a cantrip spell that deals force damage. You no longer need to be concerned about resistance to magic weapons.
3) You no longer need a full action to summon up the weapon before you can use it.
4) Multiple attacks are already cooked into the cantrip. In fact, now you can freely choose between using it in melee or at range interchangeably.
5) It GREATLY cuts down the complexity of the pact description and makes it more comparable to the other pacts.
6) Does damage comparable to a longsword, and can benefit from Agonizing Blast to improve it.
7) Already uses Charisma to modify attack and damage.

CON
1) You can't incorporate magic weapons into the Pact Blade.

Personally, I'd say this is the winner. Makes the Pact equivalent to the other Pacts in terms of power, while continuing to accomplish the goal of a gish melee character.

Then, the Hexblade Patron can grant proficiency in Medium Armor and Shields. This alone puts it in line of power equivalence to the Fiend, Archfey, and Great Old One.

And finally, I do believe a 1st level Warlock is somewhat lacking in power due to their limited number of cantrips, spells known, spell slots granted, and relatively weak power of the patrons at 1st level. To address this, I say Hex is changed from a spell to a class ability. It can be used once, recharges on a short rest, and does not require concentration. Otherwise, it remains as is. If you feel this is too much for level 1, then bump the Hex class ability to level 2.

With these changes, I think we have a viable Warlock design.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Pact of the Blade
If you don't already have the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you gain it when you take this pact. In addition, when you use this cantrip while engaged in melee, you may do so without disadvantage as normal.

I would phrase it "When you take this pact, choose one Cantrip from the Warlock spell list to add to your cantrips known. This must be Eldritch Blast if you do not already have it".

I disagree with your approach though because it makes the Pact of the Blade way better than other melee classes in important ways

1) Requiring an action to form the weapon is actually part of the balance. No one else can switch weapons as a free action either.
2) Allowing you to effortlessly switch between melee with d10 damage and ranged with d10 damage is something no one else can do
3) Allowing someone to hold a shield while doing d10 damage is something no one else can do
4) Your approach doesn't allow for using weapon properties for fighting styles. It doesn't play nice with multi-class characters, or let players choose whether they want two short swords or a glaive for the trade-offs that entails.

Also I must note that the approach I suggested also has multiple attacks, stacks with Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, etc., and does force damage. You can also take Superior Pact Weapon to get +X to-hit and damage.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=1003]Irda Ranger[/MENTION] Warlocks with Eldritch Blast can already switch between shooting at melee targets and targets at range. The only difference my suggestion addresses is allowing them to do so without rolling with disadvantage.

And yes, the fact that this does not work with weapons or fighting styles is intentional and part of the balance. Designing classes or class abilities should not include whether the abilities work well with multiclass characters, only that multiclass combinations don't break the game. Especially since multiclassing is already an optional rule as is.

 

[Irda Ranger]

That's a pretty big change though. Disadvantage is a real pain in the ass.