Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:

Did you or did you NOT read what I posted and the context of it in the previous post?
I didn't have to use "an entire build" to "beat" Astral Storm. I showed that Astral Storm as a spell would be insanely strong, so that's probably why it wasn't made into one. While I could make it into an encounter power by level 30, the nova power of the build is in evidence starting level 21.

Reading is tech.

Regarding Evard's Black Tentacles and Walls: If you don't know how to use the most powerful spells in the game to spell, "I win," then the problem is with your spelling, not with the spells. They're extremely strong.

DanceofMasks:

I agree with Evard's power. It's a very strong AoE spell. In many ways, it's stronger than Firestorm. What Firestorm does better is damage.

I showed that a Devoted Cleric's list of available AoE effects, optimized for damage and AoE, still doesn't compare to what a Wizard can do. Firestorm makes up some of that, assuming that the Cleric's Wis and implements are competitive, but it doesn't make the Cleric a better controller than the Wizard. It just kind of takes a little of the slack.

If we do weird single power comparisons, we might compare Disintegrate to Wrath of Acamar and conclude that the Wizard is a better Striker than the Warlock.

 

[Danceofmasks]

That's why every melee character needs a ranged backup plan. Just the same as if you're fighting a hovering mob.
A barely-enchanted heavy thrown weapon will do.

Edit: that was @Ahglock

@Roxlimn
It's not a weird comparison at all. Pure damage wise, Evard's > Firestorm.
Your foes can't move .. ever .. so 15 rounds later ... damage = buckets.

 

[Roxlimn]

Well, they CAN move. You're not going to hit them all the time and some foes can teleport. Speaking only of pure nova potential with the aim of obliterating a group of enemies ASAP, Firestorm is the superior power.

 

[Ahglock]

Ahglock:

Did you or did you NOT read what I posted and the context of it in the previous post?
I didn't have to use "an entire build" to "beat" Astral Storm. I showed that Astral Storm as a spell would be insanely strong, so that's probably why it wasn't made into one. While I could make it into an encounter power by level 30, the nova power of the build is in evidence starting level 21. [/quote]

Lets see you had a specific paragon path for extra damage a specific epic destiny for double usage, used a couple feats and an AP. Is there something I am missing because that seems like a fairly specific build. All of which is primarily reliant on taking a specific epic destiny.

Reading is tech.

I got an idea why don't you read what you wrote instead of asking me if I did. Now read what I wrote and point out where I said an entire build, last time I checked specific and entire were different in meaning. They may have some similarities but they are not the same and are used for different purposes.

 

[Ahglock]

That's why every melee character needs a ranged backup plan. Just the same as if you're fighting a hovering mob.
A barely-enchanted heavy thrown weapon will do.

Edit: that was @Ahglock

.

Sure I am not saying it stops the party cold I am saying it limits options available. And I am not even arguing its not an awesome power, I just think pure damage is useful in all situations while evards is something that can backfire on you. And heck overall I do think it is superior to firestorm, and a heck of a lot superior for a wizard given the role the they have.

Again this may be just due to how my players build there party's but they are fairly heavily melee focussed and wizards dropping terrain in the way sucks for them. In the right situations where its blocking off a group of enemies and they still have plenty of targets it is virtually penalty free, when they are fighting in relatively confined spaces it kind of sucks.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, they CAN move. You're not going to hit them all the time and some foes can teleport. Speaking only of pure nova potential with the aim of obliterating a group of enemies ASAP, Firestorm is the superior power.

You only need to hit them when they pass their save (you should have spell focus).
Besides, if a few get out at a time, the party can stack on them.
Same goes if one of 'em teleports out.
Firestorm is a great power .. but isn't this thread's title "Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?"
Well, it isn't .. not by a longshot. It's not even a spell (which matters for stuff that allows you to recover spells etc).

 

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:

Lets see you had a specific paragon path for extra damage a specific epic destiny for double usage, used a couple feats and an AP. Is there something I am missing because that seems like a fairly specific build. All of which is primarily reliant on taking a specific epic destiny.

We're talking about a specific spell - Meteor Swarm. Naturally, it's going to be a specific build just because we're talking about a specific build to begin with - a Wizard with Meteor Swarm!

Why would you take Meteor Swarm in any case if you're not going to abuse the heck out of it?

If you object to my use of "specific" in this instance, then we're back to the previous. I use "entire" and "specific" interchangeably in that case, because I can't imagine a "specific" build that is not considered in its entirety. If we only set a few variables into order, then that is NOT a specific build because much of it is changable.

Either you meant "entire" in my sense, or your assertion makes no sense.

What kind of epic destiny would you be talking about? Is there any specific combination of Cleric powers and features that would make Astral Storm deal this much damage?

It is NOT "totally lame" that I "had" to factor in a common Wizard Paragon Path and the only Wizard-specific epic destiny to figure out what can be done with Meteor Swarm. That's like complaining that Rogue powers are a lame way to judge daggers and rapiers on, because it's "obvious" that daggers are inferior weapons to greatswords.

Really. Whatever else are you going to do with a Wizard?

Sheesh.


Danceofmasks:

Well, given that I'm not even considering Firestorm to be the equal of EBT in terms of control, I don't see why this is an issue. The thread's title is "Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell," but I think that that's been dealt with appropriately.

Now people are saying that Firestorm makes Clerics better at dealing area damage than Wizards. It does not. That was my point. Do you contest that?

 

[Ahglock]

You only need to hit them when they pass their save (you should have spell focus).
Besides, if a few get out at a time, the party can stack on them.
Same goes if one of 'em teleports out.
Firestorm is a great power .. but isn't this thread's title "Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?"
Well, it isn't .. not by a longshot. It's not even a spell (which matters for stuff that allows you to recover spells etc).

There is a reason I've been focusing on the AoE damage comparisons. I do think evards is the better spell overall, just not by a massive margin. I also think firestorm is much better than the pure damage equivalent for the wizard at this level, which given the role of the wizard and what that role is supposed to encompass I have a problem with.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Actually, I'm still undecided between Demigod and Archmage for wizs.

 

[Roxlimn]

Danceofmasks:

If you're going to do Demigod, then I see a solid case for not taking Meteor Swarm. It's not like you're forced to take it or anything. If you HAD to take Meteor Swarm, would you still aim for Demigod?