Core classes. How are they balanced?

[Sylrae]

It's not a problem of your games being more complicated, Sylrae. You're definitely adding playing styles that screw with game balance, and when you chuck the teamwork altogether, of course some chars are going to beat others. A 1st level fighter will always destroy a 1st level sorc, in my experience, for example.

I'm not saying chuck teamwork altogether, a big pvpfest would get boring. what I'm saying is that there will be occasions where they may break off, or not have teamwork. they may even join opposite sides. limiting the players options may make it easier to disregard whethr or not the game has really powerful classes, but if I wanted a game with linear paths that the players have to follow I'd be playing a videogame, not a roleplaying game. Also, what about if they are fighting npc characters instead of monsters? say theyre fighting a bunch of clerics to some evil god. thats alot harder than if they were fighting the same number of bards.

That said, a cleric may be able to do some of what a wizard does and some of what a fighter does, but as all level, the cleric can't possibly keep up with the damage potential of the former and the feats and BAB of the latter. It sacrifices focus for versatility. Having played clerics and seen clerics played for years, I have come to believe that the game is balanced. When you radically alter the game and introduce Faerunian magic, that changes.

I understand that it sacrifices focus for versatility, however, the purpose of this topic was to say that I don't think they sacrifice enough focus for their versatility. As for no faerunian magic, games that are 100% core don't have enough options to keep me or my players interested. and though I invest alot of time in the games I run, I dont think I would have time to go through all the books and weigh the possible uses of every mechanic/spell in advance. I'd like to, but its just too much. and core has too much vanilla and not enough versatility. There are just not nearly enough options in any area. So I try to work from the assumption that the spells that are published in the FR books are close to as balanced as the core ones, and that its the other class stuff thats either over or underpowered. like, the number of spells, or the total level of spells could be imbalanced, but aside from specific spells that have been proven to be broken, I try to think the spells are not broken. The FR spells see limited use usually anyways, mostly its the feats/races that see use from the fr books. And I can't see running FR games and saying no FR products. that would just be too bizarre, and the players would get bored too quickly. About half the games run in our groups are FR.

If you were to strip down to core, I think you'd find that balance. Consider what elements you're introducing into your game. I think it's your home brew that's the problem, and not 3.5.

well, FR is published, so it doesn't really count as homebrew. most of the issues I have are things I have NOT homebrewed


And for whoever mentioned once again to switch to 4e, before I switch to 4e, I'd need more options, and I'd have to load up on 3rd party books probably to get the kinds of options I would be looking for. the whole idea of well defined roles such as striker, controller etc that you cant deviate from bother me. I understand they simplified the game to make it easier for beginners and to be easier to balance, but they just dropped too many options. I like the rogue who doesnt pick locks, for example, and took acrobatics instead. or the idea of being half way between 2 classes.

in 4e I'd probably make so many house rules (new classes, or a new multiclassing system) before running my first campaign that I would break everything by accident. 4e is a fun board game to play for an afternoon, once. but I dont see it as a game I could play weekly as a continuous thing. I'd be more likely to as another person sais they would suggest for this, to switch to another system.

as for switching to another system for the game I'm running, there are not beter systems for it. for the playstyle, a white wolf game might be best suited, but white wolf doesnt have all the setting and creature and magic things I would be looking for in a fantasy campaign.

and while the cleric may not be able to put out as much AOE damage as a blaster mage, I'd have to say most mages I've seen people play are not blasters. the blasting is like their secondary or tertiary goal, so they usually have a much smaller number of them.

 

[Derro]

Since the versatility of the cleric seems to be your biggest issue how about a reversal of general and domain spells?

Instead of being able to memorize an extra domain spell on top of the cleric list make the additional spell be the cleric list and the standard issue be the domain spells. In the long run this means all of the god's domains would have to be available but that can be scaled over levels.

This gives the cleric the same spell selection but not the same versatility. Maybe this will shorten the gap between arcane and divine in your game.

 

[Sylrae]

Now that might be the best Idea yet. Make the clerics much more specialized. And when you cay all of the god's domains be available, you don't mean all the domains in total, you just mean all the domains of their god, correct?

*Grabs PHB* So if I worship Corellon Larethian, then I get spells from the Chaos, Good, Protection, and War domains, yes? and then I'd get one 'general' spell per level. I'd probably feel it necessary to make sure all the general spells are in some domain or another, but that wouldn't be too hard.

Then you drop the ability to autoheal, and replace it with a domain spell they can autocast, either by deity or by domain. maybe since they would be losing general usefulness, they could have a couple spells they could drop slots to cast.

I'm thinking maybe undead turning should go specialized as well, and make all the clerics get something different. In some cases it would be a domain's granted power, and maybe you would just get 3 domain powers. instead of increased caster levels, good and evil domains would give turn/rebuke undead.

I think that would make all my issues with them go away, because they would lose the huge versatility even though they would still have the same number of spells. They'd be forced to specialize.

then after playtesting it I could see whether the 'pray as you go' or 'progress as a bard' changes would still be necessary. they'd be better in their specialized areas, but they wouldn't be good at everything, they would have to pick.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Have you ever thought about using a spontaneous cleric? Essentially - a cleric that looks and feels like a sorcerer but casts divine spells. [And no - I'm not talking about a Favored Soul. While I love the FS class, it's rediculous that they get wings and three good saves]

Make a cleric that gets:

Spells known/Spell slots = Sorcerer progression
BAB = 3/4
Saves = 1 good (or 2 good, but not 3 good)
Special abilities = Turning, but not spontaneous casting (since they're sorceresque)
HP = d8
No domains, or perhaps domains like the regular cleric

You can fill in the rest. But now you have a cleric that can choose their known spell list from the whole list - but resulting in a very limited selection. They get more power, but much less versatility. Thus, they are likely tobeable to be equivalent to a fighter, or equivalent to a ranger, or equivalent to an arcance caster, or a healer, but not more than one in each build.

 

[Draz]

There's even a published variant for the Spontaneous Cleric thing, right in the SRD. Here. It specifically mentions that one of its advantages is to make Domain choices more important (much more so, IMHO) by making them the core of Spells Known. You might even feel like two Domains is enough over 20 levels with the reasonable (but limited!) selection of "general Cleric" spells that can be selected.

 

[Sylrae]

I could definitely see that as a viable class option with some small tweaks, but that's not quite what I'm going for. I think the one above it just might be though.

 

[Starbuck_II]

It's not a problem of your games being more complicated, Sylrae. You're definitely adding playing styles that screw with game balance, and when you chuck the teamwork altogether, of course some chars are going to beat others. A 1st level fighter will always destroy a 1st level sorc, in my experience, for example.

Please, don't say always when you mean usually.

Heck, a Sorc can beat down a Fighter if the Sorc whens Init. And Impr Init is a very popular Spellcaster feat.
Choices: Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, Charm Person (friends don't kill each other), and Cause Fear (if you run you lose).

Now except for Grease: 90% use Will saves. Average will save for fighter: 11 or 10. Trust me, you'll fail usually.

Grease targets reflex, but you fall prone or he greases weapon and you can't pick it up.

 

[Runestar]

While I love the FS class, it's rediculous that they get wings and three good saves

Favoured soul - overpowered? They get wings only at lv19, by which time everyone in the party should have easy access to ready flight (either via spells or eq). The double stat-dependency really kills them, IMO.

 

[spoonguy]

My opinion would be if characters are prone to self interest and factions then the roleplay element needs to be much more important. What skills can affect the game outside of the combat? Some characters may find it easier to get npcs to side with them, if this is a powerful npc then it may outweigh another characters advantage in one on one.
In a game I’m in currently our wizard has a great deal of knowledge but no social skills at all, while others social skills make npc interaction very easy indeed.
Make obstacles that one character simply cannot get past without the others, force a temporary alliance. The players need to be focused by their DM, let them fail a few tasks because of excessive self interest etc. Give them long term goals the others are not aware of so that they see the benefits in getting player x or npc y on side.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Favoured soul - overpowered?

Heh. Sorry if my words mislead you to misinterpret my meaning. In my post I don't say anything about the power of a Favored Soul. I hate the fact that they get wings for a character reason. What does a character do with those wings when they sleep? When they sit down at a tavern bench made for people who don't have to deal with wings? When they want to look like a normal person when blending in with the world? I just hate classes that grow wings as a part of them - even if the wings disappear when not needed. I think it's stupid ... unless its part of a spell and the wings go away when the spell ends. [Note: that's my opinion, not a reflection on game design and power]

As far as the three good saves, I also don't like it as a part of game design. I didn't like it with the monk - and I don't like it with the FS. Note that I don't particularly believe that the monk is overpowered either. It isn't a comment on poor game design as far as mechanics/power go. It's a comment on poor game design as far as realism in gaming goes. Few characters realistically have strong reflexes, force of will, and strong constitutions. It's possible, but most people have holes in one of those aspects. But it certainly isn't a game balance critique that I was making. If it weren't for those stupid wings, I'd love the FS class!