Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Wow, that's actually a really good idea.
Why there's crafting in WOW and not in D&D
- Thread starter Staffan
- Start date
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
The big difference there is the lack of "farming" in D&D.
IMO, this is a very good thing because farming makes me shoot myself, be it for XP or for crafting goods.
Still, it's possible to add something like this. I think of it much like a "treasure template" that can reflect the enemies that you have been fighting. If you fight a lot of undead, you wind up with weapons that emulate undead powers and armors that protect you from common undead abilities; if you fight a lot of flying enemies, you wind up with weapons that help you attack the fliers and armors that help you defend against diving strikes and the like.
FFZ is basically going this route with its synthesis rules. It's a little fun.
IMO, this is a very good thing because farming makes me shoot myself, be it for XP or for crafting goods.
Still, it's possible to add something like this. I think of it much like a "treasure template" that can reflect the enemies that you have been fighting. If you fight a lot of undead, you wind up with weapons that emulate undead powers and armors that protect you from common undead abilities; if you fight a lot of flying enemies, you wind up with weapons that help you attack the fliers and armors that help you defend against diving strikes and the like.
FFZ is basically going this route with its synthesis rules. It's a little fun.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Nah, WoW's alcohol effects are entirely separate from their buff/debuff system. (It'd be nice if they were merged, though, so you could see how long you were going to remain drunk for and could get characters who can cure poison to remove the effect when it's done to you involuntarily, as it is by the spiders in Zul'Gurub.)I hope you didn't mean to say: WoW, hat's actually a really good idea!
Um, isn't the main problem with allowing "profitable" crafting is that if successful, you can buy magic items that, unlike WoW aren't level limited?
For example, as Staffan pointed out, there is a significant time investment on the part of the player to actually get the required materials AND the player can't use anything that is more powerful than his level.
Contrast that with any version of D&D (from BECMI to 4e).
Player: "I have CRAFT Magic Shebang"
DM: "It'll take six weeks"
Player: "We do anything for 6 months guys? No, then I'll take six months, and make as many Magic Shebangs as I can"
DM: "Ok, six weeks have passed. You have x Magic shebangs"
Now if said item is something that can be sold for a profit, there's nothing preventing the player from simply taking even a longer time off and then simply buying a more powerful item than his level.
I always assumed this was why neither 3e or 4E have anything resembling a decent craft system.
Unless we go back to a) not being able to sell magic items or b) Magic items being level-limited, crafting is just opening itself up to abuse.
For example, as Staffan pointed out, there is a significant time investment on the part of the player to actually get the required materials AND the player can't use anything that is more powerful than his level.
Contrast that with any version of D&D (from BECMI to 4e).
Player: "I have CRAFT Magic Shebang"
DM: "It'll take six weeks"
Player: "We do anything for 6 months guys? No, then I'll take six months, and make as many Magic Shebangs as I can"
DM: "Ok, six weeks have passed. You have x Magic shebangs"
Now if said item is something that can be sold for a profit, there's nothing preventing the player from simply taking even a longer time off and then simply buying a more powerful item than his level.
I always assumed this was why neither 3e or 4E have anything resembling a decent craft system.
Unless we go back to a) not being able to sell magic items or b) Magic items being level-limited, crafting is just opening itself up to abuse.
DarkKestral
First Post
I suspect the real reason crafting systems aren't in D&D but are in MMOs and CRPGs is a simple one: MMOs and CRPGs can afford to make pre-defined effect combinations because the players don't generate the electronic content. (Second Life is somewhat interesting, as it works somewhat differently, but it's not nearly as successful as WoW because it generally relies on players to generate their own content to have any fun. And doing 3D skinning, modeling, and coding is a set of tasks many don't want to do.) No matter how you look at it, crafting systems basically work on a single principle: combining item/ability X and item/ability Y creates item or ability Z. In recipe-based games, the "recipe" is effectively a part of the combination that often becomes a permanent part of your "inventory" once obtained. In base + modifier systems, it's simply a matter of finding the combination of sub-effects and modifiers that is closest the desired result. The gadget system in d20 Modern is effectively somewhat like this, as gadgeting adds new, pre-defined qualities to a base item for a certain cost.
On the other hand, when you have unlimited effects creation, you get a case where it's a total ***** to adjudicate what the appropriate "costs" are. And if you make things profitable... well, it creates positive feedback. And there's no game balance in positive feedback to character power, unless it is paired with a source of negative feedback somewhere to create a sigmoid curve in terms of power from a certain source. (I suspect that the best games balance things in this manner; it would certainly help game balance issues if you can always expect character power to be within some value X of the "ideal.)
On the other hand, when you have unlimited effects creation, you get a case where it's a total ***** to adjudicate what the appropriate "costs" are. And if you make things profitable... well, it creates positive feedback. And there's no game balance in positive feedback to character power, unless it is paired with a source of negative feedback somewhere to create a sigmoid curve in terms of power from a certain source. (I suspect that the best games balance things in this manner; it would certainly help game balance issues if you can always expect character power to be within some value X of the "ideal.)
Last edited:
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
I think scaling level limits on items (healing and damage can only work at a level-appropriate power level, even if the "real" version of the magic item's power is higher, and the power level doesn't scale up beyond that) is a pretty reasonable addition to D&D magic items and would let the older style of magic item creation work.
Sure, that level 1 wizard can be armed with a wand of fireballs, but the fireballs only do 1d4 damage. Go nuts.
Sure, that level 1 wizard can be armed with a wand of fireballs, but the fireballs only do 1d4 damage. Go nuts.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Then don't try Lord of the Rings Online. They have an actual Farmer profession where you literally get to have your character farm crops.
Remathilis
Legend
QFT!
I do not lament the lose of the craft/profession skill point sink. If it were like in 2e (where you basically balanced non-useful skills like herbalism with equally non-useful skills like firebuilding) it would work, but about the time 10 ranks in craft: cheesemaking and 10 ranks in Open Lock are the same cost, you lose me on the whole craft/profession thing...
Similar Threads
