Do conditions stack?

[GorTeX]

Might want to look at page 278 as well.
summary (check the PHB for the full text)
Ongoing damage..if you get hit by a power that does Ongoing 5 Fire damage and one that does Ongoing 10 fire damage, you only make a save vs. the Ongoing 10 Fire and when you save, you are no longer taking ongoing fire damage. The Ongoing Damage does not stack (you don't take Ongoing 15), You don't make saves vs Ongoing 5 and Ongoing 10, just one save.

Then look over on Durations.. You are only affected by the longest lasting effect of the same type.
If you are Dazed until the start of your turn and Dazed (save ends) and Dazed until the end of your next turn, only the effect with the longer duration applies.

It is not clear if you have to make the save to see if the condition last longer than the end of your next turn or not.

It is not clear if you combine all effects with 'Save Ends' into one effect.

IMO, if you are hit with 1000 different powers, all with a 'Dazed (save ends)' wording, you should only have to make one save, as they will have the same duration of (save ends).

Now, if one (or more) of those powers had a save modifier, then that would be a different effect, but all such effects would combine into one.

 

[catsclaw227]

I had hte same question posted in another thread, here's the link.

Here's the quoted text:

The party is up against a Drow encounter: 3 Drow warriors, 6 Drow guards (a minion I created), and 1 Drow Arachnomancer.

Once PC is hit by two drow warriors and are effected by the poison -- two different strikes, therefore 2 different "doses" of poison. Then he is hit by the Drow Arachnomancer's Venom Ray, Ongoing 5 poison damage.

When the PC has to save, do they save three times (one for each hit) or just twice, once for the Drow Warrior blade poison and once for the Venom Ray?

Furthermore, if they do need to save three times, does a save end both Drow Poison effects?

And if they fail the Drow Poison and they become also weakened (save ends), does the save end both effects of the poison - the -2 to attack and the weakened condition, or does there need to be two saves?

1st turn after being hit:
He saves twice.

Once for the poison of the Drow Warriors and once for the Drow Arachnomancer's poison.
If he fails the save against the drow warrior's poison he becomes also weakened.
(If he fails that save once more he becomes unconscious. Might occur on second turn.)
If he fails against the Arachnomancer's poison the ongoing 5 poison damage persist.

OK, so even though the PC took hits from two different Drow Poison sources (2 attacks from two different Drow Warriors), there is only one save per round necessary, since they are the same source type of "Drow Poison"?

What if they were two different creatures with two different powers, but the end result for each was 5 ongoing poison (save ends)?

Would this require two saves or just one?

 

[Syrsuro]

A PC is affected by a power that dazes plus ongoing damage (save ends both).

Then the PC is affected by a power that dazes (save ends).

How many saving throws does the PC roll?

Does changing the timing of the effects change your answer?

Two saves.

Precedent: See the post by eamon above. It describes the Imp's hellish poison as having one effect that imposes two different conditions.

Thus you have one effect that imposes both daze and ongoing damage, save ends both.
And you have another effect that imposes only a daze, save ends.

Two different effects, two saving throws (even if there is partial overlap of the conditions).

As I see it (and here I am inferring the logic behind what I see as RAW) there are:

Powers (that which is used to attack targets)
which impose
Effects (that which is in effect on the target)
which cause
Conditions (how the effect affects the target)

Thus two different powers may impose the same effect (in which case there is a single save needed) while two different effects may impose the same condition (in which case multiple saves are needed).

The question, of course (getting back to the OP) is whether two different powers which impose effects whose properties are identical (i.e. both impose "daze, save ends" are actually imposing the same effect (as I read it) or imposing two different effects which happen to be identical in all ways. I suppose that you could argue that despite the effects being identical in every way (except for their source) they are actually two different effects. But I think that's a pretty specious argument.

(And I think there is no merit to a claim that overlapping effects placed by the same power would require multiple saves - as those are clearly the same effect).

(edit) Of course, all the discussion in the world will be pointless once someone brings C.S. into the mix. This gets asked enough (here and on the WoTC forums) that they'll make a ruling and that will become canon. On the other hand, they also thought that burst and blast spells should extend to an infinite height. So who knows what they will rule.

Carl

 

[eamon]

As I see it (and here I am inferring the logic behind what I see as RAW) there are:

Powers (that which is used to attack targets)
which impose
Effects (that which is in effect on the target)
which cause
Conditions (how the effect affects the target)

Thus two different powers may impose the same effect (in which case there is a single save needed) while two different effects may impose the same condition (in which case multiple saves are needed).

The question, of course (getting back to the OP) is whether two different powers which impose effects whose properties are identical (i.e. both impose "daze, save ends" are actually imposing the same effect (as I read it) or imposing two different effects which happen to be identical in all ways. I suppose that you could argue that despite the effects being identical in every way (except for their source) they are actually two different effects. But I think that's a pretty specious argument.

This is exactly my reasoning too, except I come to the opposite conclusion.

The problem is that "effects" aren't usually named. Are you dazed because someone is magically twisting your mind, or just because you got a good thumping? Maybe somebody is strangling you, and you're just a little feeble? I think it's quite plausible for the same conditions to have different causes. If they have the same cause (I'm intentionally avoiding the confusing word 'effect' here), then one save suffices.

Finally, the interaction with ongoing damage simply makes it all more confusing. The section on ongoing damage fails to address "mixed" situations, such as various coupled ongoing damages with one save to end, and never quite comes out and says clearly that you need to make only one save to end all ongoing damage from one source.

Really, there should be some clear framework as to which saves end what, even when many things are combined.

 

[takasi]

I was the DM in this same scenario and was rushed for time (RPGA game). I made a call, but now I have time to look this up.

PHB 278:

"Overlapping durations: If a target is affected by multiple powers that have the same effect but end at different times, the effect with the most time remaining applies."

Specific example:

Iron Cobra hits target A with 'Poison the Mind' and target A is dazed and slowed (save ends both).

Clay Scout hits target A with 'Mind Touch'. The target is dazed (save ends).

Dazed is the same effect and the same duration so it does not apply.

That's RAW IMO. For RAI, I think 3.5 durations should be turned to. 'Saves' in 4E are patterned after durations from 3.5.

Similar scenario in 3.5:

A fifth level cleric casts hold person and target A fails its 'save' (in 4E this is a defense). Target A is paralyzed and the duration (measured by 'saves' in 4E) is 5 rounds.

A 3rd level cleric casts ghoul touch on target A and it fails its 'save'. The duration is rolled (1d6+2) and a 4 is the result. The condition can be ignored entirely.

A power might create two conditions with the same 'duration' (number of saves it takes to end them) but in this example we are only comparing two conditions.

Now what happens if...

Iron Cobra hits target A with 'Poison the Mind' and target A is dazed and slowed (until the end of its next turn).

Clay Scout hits target A with 'Mind Touch'. The target is dazed (save ends).

In this case the question, IMO, becomes: Which effect lasts longer?

IMO, due to the chronological order of the previous three durations on 278, and 'save ends' being the final forth duration, I assume that 'save ends' is the longest duration. Even though it has the potential to be as short as 'until the end of its next turn' if you make the first save, since you don't know at the beginning it becomes the longest duration.

Taking this into account, in the last example target A is slowed until the end of its next turn and dazed (save ends).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Similar scenario in 3.5:

A fifth level cleric casts hold person and target A fails its 'save' (in 4E this is a defense). Target A is paralyzed and the duration (measured by 'saves' in 4E) is 5 rounds.

A 3rd level cleric casts ghoul touch on target A and it fails its 'save'. The duration is rolled (1d6+2) and a 4 is the result. The condition can be ignored entirely.

In 3.5, it can't... because a dispel magic has the potential to dispel the hold person, for example, without affecting the ghoul touch, in which case Target A would still be paralyzed for 4 rounds, even though he wouldn't be paralyzed for 5.

-Hyp.

 

[catsclaw227]

Specific example:

Iron Cobra hits target A with 'Poison the Mind' and target A is dazed and slowed (save ends both).

Clay Scout hits target A with 'Mind Touch'. The target is dazed (save ends).

Dazed is the same effect and the same duration so it does not apply.

See, this is where I might disagree. At the end of the PCs round, they make two saves.

If a PC saves against Poison the Mind, then it is assumed that the daze from Mind Touch is also removed since Poison the Mind's save ends two different effects?

What if the two powers did something like this:

Monster #1 hits target A with "Cool Power 1" and target A is dazed and slowed (save ends both).

Monster #2 hits target A with "Cool Power 2" and target A is dazed and weakened (save ends both).

OK, now target A is dazed, slowed and weakened. If target A saves vs "Cool Power 1" and fails the save vs "Cool Power 2", is the target still dazed?

 

[takasi]

In 3.5, it can't... because a dispel magic has the potential to dispel the hold person, for example, without affecting the ghoul touch, in which case Target A would still be paralyzed for 4 rounds, even though he wouldn't be paralyzed for 5.

Right, and that example was really just to illustrate RAI. If 3.5 spells could not be dispelled (as is the case in 4E) you would only need to track the duration of each character's conditions. If the same condition is caused by multiple spells (powers) only the longest duration would need to be tracked.

 

[takasi]

If a PC saves against Poison the Mind, then it is assumed that the daze from Mind Touch is also removed since Poison the Mind's save ends two different effects?

What if the two powers did something like this:

Monster #1 hits target A with "Cool Power 1" and target A is dazed and slowed (save ends both).

Monster #2 hits target A with "Cool Power 2" and target A is dazed and weakened (save ends both).

OK, now target A is dazed, slowed and weakened. If target A saves vs "Cool Power 1" and fails the save vs "Cool Power 2", is the target still dazed?

If Cool Power 2 hit after Cool Power 1 then its only effect would be to weaken (save ends). These are multiple powers causing the same effect (daze).

As I see it (and here I am inferring the logic behind what I see as RAW) there are:

Powers (that which is used to attack targets)
which impose
Effects (that which is in effect on the target)
which cause
Conditions (how the effect affects the target)

'Effect' when listed under a power means the power produces 'effects' that take place regardless of whether or not an attack succeeds. However, powers produce 'effects' even if that keyword isn't there. In the same section of page 59, the text reads 'Some effects impose a condition on the power's target'. It never reads that an effect can impose multiple conditions; it's a one-to-one definition. It's reasonable to rule that a power that says target a is slowed and weakened is producing two different effects with the same duration. The first effect is the dazed condition and the second effect is the weakened condition.

Effect is also listed in the definition of 'conditions': A condition imposes a penalty, a vulnerability, a hindrance, or a combination of effects. That sentence would not make sense using Syrsuro's definition. Powers have effects (conditions, bonuses or other defined changes). Conditions also have 'effects'. It's a generic term. Powers that produce multiple conditions with the same duration (save ends) are producing multiple effects.

 

[catsclaw227]

If Cool Power 2 hit after Cool Power 1 then its only effect would be to weaken (save ends). These are multiple powers causing the same effect (daze).

OK, so if Cool Power 2 is saved against, then it only removes the weakened condition? Or does it remove the dazed condition as well, even though it only actually added a weakened condition and not dazed and weakened?

That doesn't seem to make sense.