Ranged Sneak Attack

[aboyd]

Actually, looking at it now, I think I'm about to houserule it so that Quick Draw does work. Here's why.

1. "Draw a weapon" is a move action which does not incur AOO.
2. "Retrieve an item" is a move action which does incur AOO.
3. Using a Haversack is a move action with no AOO, like... #1.

If HHH is like drawing a weapon and someone takes a feat to reduce the time to draw a weapon, then I might rule that Quick Draw applies. Someone with a Haversack full of fire bombs gets to draw them like drawing a weapon.

The real question is, why does the Haversack have the move action? If it's a magically enforced timing issue -- say perhaps it is the magical "sorting time" needed to get your item on top -- then you have to wait a move action no matter what. However, if the Haversack's time limit is in place because the authors were trying to convey that it improves normal search & retrieval procedures, then Quick Draw ought to speed up that interaction.

 

[irdeggman]

Actually, looking at it now, I think I'm about to houserule it so that Quick Draw does work. Here's why.

1. "Draw a weapon" is a move action which does not incur AOO.
2. "Retrieve an item" is a move action which does incur AOO.
3. Using a Haversack is a move action with no AOO, like... #1.

If HHH is like drawing a weapon and someone takes a feat to reduce the time to draw a weapon, then I might rule that Quick Draw applies. Someone with a Haversack full of fire bombs gets to draw them like drawing a weapon.

The real question is, why does the Haversack have the move action? If it's a magically enforced timing issue -- say perhaps it is the magical "sorting time" needed to get your item on top -- then you have to wait a move action no matter what. However, if the Haversack's time limit is in place because the authors were trying to convey that it improves normal search & retrieval procedures, then Quick Draw ought to speed up that interaction.

Why would you want to treat a drawing a flask of oil (or firebomb) any differently than drawing a potion?

The reason (IMO) why drawing a weapon does not generate an AoO is because you can use it to defend yourself (or essentially to threaten a square). A flask can not be used to threaten a square not can it be used to defend yourself. They (WotC) just oversimplified it to also include ranged weapons (like bows) with which you do not threaten (and hence don't protect yourself).

 

[aboyd]

Why would you want to treat a drawing a flask of oil (or firebomb) any differently than drawing a potion?

Well, first, if I read the nuances of the Haversack correctly, it essentially turns anything inside into a draw instead of a retrieve. In such a case, a flask and a potion would be the same -- both at draw speed.

However, I would suggest that even if that's not the case, the authors of Quick Draw have led us to "drawing a flask is different," by including text such as, "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks." Since flasks are thrown weapons, they qualify.

If you don't agree, that's great for you. Play how you wanna. But my findings are leading me down another path, and I'm getting happier with it as I go.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, first, if I read the nuances of the Haversack correctly, it essentially turns anything inside into a draw instead of a retrieve. In such a case, a flask and a potion would be the same -- both at draw speed.

Descriptive texts of HHH in DMG are not using the word "draw" at all. It states that "Retrieving a specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attack of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does."

So, all this item does is, to prevent provoking AoO when you use "Retrieve a stored item." action. HHH does not turn it to "draw weapon" or "draw something" action. It is indeed just a slightly useful backpack.

You can still "draw" splash weapons from your belts or bandoliers. The main difference is that you cannot negate the weight of those flasks as you have them outside HHH. But rogues usually don't need that many flasks per combat, as it is rather difficult to meet the condition to make ranged sneak attacks.

 

[aboyd]

Descriptive texts of HHH in DMG are not using the word "draw" at all. It states that "Retrieving a specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attack of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does."

Which is the same as drawing an item. Hence, my position.

 

[Shin Okada]

Which is the same as drawing an item. Hence, my position.

But those two actions have differences other than provoking AoO. For example, when grappling, you can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check, or Retrieve a Spell Component from your spell component pouch as a full-round action. But you cannot retrieve other items from containers. Remember that retrieving a spell component from your pouch is not considered to be "Retrieve a stored item" action, it is, in usual circumstance, a part of spell casting.

 

[aboyd]

Sure, that's fine, but this isn't "usual circumstance." It's a Haversack. The question is, when the authors wrote that it works better than a normal backpack as far as retrievals are concerned, were they improving the action or imposing the action? In other words, if a Haversack has a move action limitation because it's running a "sort to top" algorithm on your command, then pretty much there isn't any way to get around the move action limitation. It's imposed. This makes a magical Haversack worse than many non-magical containers such as a bandolier. That's fine if you rule that way. I'm just thinking that I won't in my campaigns. I'm leaning to the other side -- that the Haversack mentions there is no AOO because it's functioning better than a normal backpack. If that's the case, optimzing with a Quick Draw is a very reasonable use of the feat, especially considering that some DMs would probably rule that way even with a nonmagical backpack. The writing on the Quick Draw description simply lends itself to this kind of tribulation. It boils down to what overrides what. Quick Draw clearly overrides the normal, described draw time for melee weapons. It also says that this means throwing at full BAB speed is allowed. Does that mean it overrides the retrieval time? It doesn't say yes or no. At that point, every DM has to make a ruling. I go one way, you go another. I'm sure you think your way is sensible. I think making sure a magical item is not upstaged by a nonmagical item is also valid, so I think my way is sensible. There we have it.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, even in my interpretation HHH is still much better then normal backpacks. You can retrieve potions and scrolls without provoking AoO. And you can carry more items than your str usually allow you.

It is just that HHH is a magical backpack. Not a magical bandolier, magical scabbard, nor magical quiver.

 

[aboyd]

The reason (IMO) why drawing a weapon does not generate an AoO is because you can use it to defend yourself (or essentially to threaten a square). A flask can not be used to threaten a square not can it be used to defend yourself.

Neither can a wand, yet it qualifies. Here:

As described on page 142 of the Player’s Handbook, the “draw a weapon” action also applies to weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. (The Sage would suggest that magic rods and staffs also fall into this category.) Thus, drawing a wand doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and a character with Quick Draw could draw one as a free action.

If mere "weaponlike" items qualify, then something plainly described as a "splash weapon" would seem to more than meet the qualifications.

 

[irdeggman]

Neither can a wand, yet it qualifies. Here:


If mere "weaponlike" items qualify, then something plainly described as a "splash weapon" would seem to more than meet the qualifications.

Using a wand also does not generate an AoO.

But I did point out that they (WoTC) extended it to bows which do not threaten either.

Not also that potions of cure light wounds qualify as splash weapons when used against undead but not when used as a means for healing.

So then any bottle or flask being drawn would qualify - which just doesn't make any sense.

Splash weapons are more of a category than a type of weapon since some things are sometimes resolved as a splash weapons and sometimes not. I'm not even sure you could take weapon focus- splash weapons (but it might be possible).