Ranged Sneak Attack

[Shin Okada]

But then they are easier to manipulate and thus make more sense to be able to use quick draw on then - which was my point.

Then all I can say is "I don't think so.". Something so small (and not as simple in shape and as solid as, say, sling bullet) is often harder to manipulate, especially in the chaos of combat, I think.

 

[Kylas]

The problem is that I don't consider a "splash weapon" a weapon for this sort of thing.

If it is so considered then any similar type item (flask, vial, etc.) would likewise be considered one. Hence quick draw would work. It is pretty obvious that the rules were not meant to cover quick drawing potions of cure light wounds. But your logic would force it to apply to those as well.

I don't see what's wrong with being able to quickdraw a potion. If you trained to be able to quickly ready something as big as a great sword or as small as a dart why would quick drawing healing potions be a problem. It still takes at least a move action ( or standard) to ingest it. Its not like it breaks the game.

Breakability is not my point.

Flasks of splash weapons and vials of potions are largely different in size (and shape, I guess). All the splash weapon flasks in PHB weigh 1 pound or more (with contents). On the other hand, a potion vial contains only 1 ounce or so of liquid. I think such a small vials is more difficult to handle as throwing weapons. They will be too small and too thin to be used like a Mortov cocktail.

Though I tend to agree about the usability of such small items. I don't think they would apply to the "weapon" items like acid and alchemists fire. I think theses, being built to be thrown as weapons, would be easy enough to grab and throw. Also in regards to smaller vials. It's only AC 5 to attack a square. I don't think Many PCs will be missing that.


Lastly quick draw doesn't specify a weapon (like weapon focus...etc.) If that feat gives you the ability to switch from carrying a dart to a falchion, or a shiruken to a great axe then I would think the ability is general enough to apply to splash weapons and 'weapon like' items and even improvised weapons. I'm thinking it's meant more in terms of quickly getting your 'weapon' ready for use whether to defend or attack.

 

[irdeggman]

Then all I can say is "I don't think so.". Something so small (and not as simple in shape and as solid as, say, sling bullet) is often harder to manipulate, especially in the chaos of combat, I think.

And yet as pointed out you can quick draw a shuriken (this covers all shapes not just the throwing star version but also the ones that look remarkably like small pointed vials {thin and light}). Vials weigh approx 1/10 lbs, flasks weigh approx 1 lbs, daggers weigh approx 1 lbs, a whetstone weighs approx 1 lbs, shurikens weigh approx 1/10 lbs {5 weigh 1/2 lbs}, etc. So it is not about weight. It should be about "shape" but including things like shuriken makes this basis very fuzzy. I mean a wand is "similar" in size and shape to a dagger or short sword so it makes some semblance of sense to treat it like a dagger for purposes of quick drawing.

A vial is about 1 in wide and 3 in long.

A flask can be made of ceramic, glass or metal (note that this allowance of being made of metal has it including flasks that are not meant to be thrown {as splash weapons} and yet still fall into the same category).

Daggers (which also can be quick drawn) include anything in the dagger family - from stilletos to long daggers {per the PHB versions that is} - so they can greatly range in size and shape.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, if a player beg a DM to buy or make potion flasks or other items, as easily handled as weapons, then it is up to each DM if allow it or not IMHO. And it may be a new kind of items better handled by a specific house rule. Because nowhere in the rule book they are treated as weapons. Maybe you can apply some extra cost for such modification.

Regarding shuriken, well, I am not truly sure if it is realistic to make star-shaped or disk-like shuriken is easily drawn. Or even truly practical as a weapon. Even here in Japan, it is debated again and again by historians and martial artists if such shurikens are really practical. FYI, most of the famous Shuriken-do styles are using dart or needle-like shurikens. Not disks or stars-shaped ones. Also, as pointed out by many from the beginning, spiked chain does not seem to be realistic, so as most of the double weapons. And Kusari-Gama in DMG is not at all like true Japanese Kusari Gama (Kama part is not for throwing, so it should not be ranged slashing weapon). So, I am regarding star-shaped shurikens in D&D (and many other RPGs) as somewhat "fictional" weapon. I don't think much about "reality" when thinking about Star-shaped shuriken in RPG. It is like not thinking about if wings of dragons can really support their weight.

 

[irdeggman]

Well, if a player beg a DM to buy or make potion flasks or other items, as easily handled as weapons, then it is up to each DM if allow it or not IMHO. And it may be a new kind of items better handled by a specific house rule. Because nowhere in the rule book they are treated as weapons. Maybe you can apply some extra cost for such modification.

Regarding shuriken, well, I am not truly sure if it is realistic to make star-shaped or disk-like shuriken is easily drawn. Or even truly practical as a weapon. Even here in Japan, it is debated again and again by historians and martial artists if such shurikens are really practical. FYI, most of the famous Shuriken-do styles are using dart or needle-like shurikens. Not disks or stars-shaped ones. Also, as pointed out by many from the beginning, spiked chain does not seem to be realistic, so as most of the double weapons. And Kusari-Gama in DMG is not at all like true Japanese Kusari Gama (Kama part is not for throwing, so it should not be ranged slashing weapon). So, I am regarding star-shaped shurikens in D&D (and many other RPGs) as somewhat "fictional" weapon. I don't think much about "reality" when thinking about Star-shaped shuriken in RPG. It is like not thinking about if wings of dragons can really support their weight.

So basically shuriken are roughly the same size and weight as potion vials then.

Remember that quick draw only allows the retrieval of the item quicker - not the use.

It still takes a standard action to throw a shuriken and it still takes a standard action to drink a potion.

 

[aboyd]

I've finally concluded that my interpretation will be that it's about the container, not the designation of the item.

After all, we started this with a debate about how haversacks, scabbards, and bandoliers either work or don't with the Quick Draw feat. We've all at least agreed that the thing holding the thing has to enable quick access.

So I've decided that that's it. If a spellcaster wants to Quick Draw scrolls, I'm letting him provided he can get an outfit that enables that. Perhaps there might only be 5 slots for Quick Draw, and the rest are stuffed in a backpack, but it still works for me. And it won't diminish read time. The Quick Draw merely removes the searching-in-a-pack time.

If a player wants to Quick Draw a potion, sure, if it's in a bandolier or special belt. They'll still need the move action to drink it down, though.

Shurikens? I assume they're in a wrist pouch with ready access, or carried in such a way that 10 can be held in the palm, allowing for many rounds of throwing before needing a reload.

Flasks in a bandolier? Yep. Sheathed sword? Yep. Sword in backpack? Nope.

It all comes down to how easy it is to get at it, not what it is classified as. This solution makes me happy, and getting back to the original post, it also enables some nice ranged sneak attacks with flasks if the setup is careful & correct. I'm happy to reward players for careful planning.

Thanks for helping me work through my thoughts on the matter.

 

[irdeggman]

So I've decided that that's it. If a spellcaster wants to Quick Draw scrolls, I'm letting him provided he can get an outfit that enables that. Perhaps there might only be 5 slots for Quick Draw, and the rest are stuffed in a backpack, but it still works for me. And it won't diminish read time. The Quick Draw merely removes the searching-in-a-pack time.

Thanks for helping me work through my thoughts on the matter.

And that pretty much makes sense.

If the equipment is designed to allow ready access then it should work for most anything.

Now I might have a problem with scrolls since they are always rolled up and sealed (with some sort of protective cover). They are not merely loose sheets of paper/parchment - ever.

Reading a scroll is a standard action - getting it ready to be read is something a tad more complex than merely getting it into hand, IMO.