Sustaining a power provokes OAs?

[Xris Robin]

I'd argue that sustaining doesn't provoke because it's a minor action. If my action is well, 'minor' enough that it's not even a standard action, then it doesn't seem like it would leave me open to an OA.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, while I agree that you can only use Flaming Sphere once per day, I maintain that you can still attack with it multiple times per day, and that each time you attack with it, you provoke an OA.

Consider Freezing Cloud (Wiz 1). It's an Area power, with an attack line... and an effect that any creature that enters the cloud or starts its turn there is subject to another attack (the cloud lasts until the end of your next turn).

So the wizard casts Freezing Cloud encompassing five goblins, say; it's an area power, he provokes an OA from the adjacent hobgoblin. End of the wizard's turn.

Next, it's a goblin's turn, and he's starting his turn in the area of the cloud, so he's subject to an attack. If we assume that on p268, 'ranged attack' means 'any time you make a ranged attack roll', and 'area attack' means 'any time you make an area attack roll', then this goblin who is subject to an area attack means the wizard makes an area attack roll, provoking an OA... and since it's a new combatant's turn (the goblin's), the hobgoblin can take an opportunity action, and hits the wizard.

Now it's another goblin's turn; he takes an area attack from the cloud, and the hobgoblin takes an OA on the wizard.

A third goblin? Another OA.

All in all, the wizard takes six OAs from the hobgoblin before his next turn... each one of a different combatant's turn. And if the hobgoblin can convince more minions to enter the cloud, he can get more OAs.

All of this assumes that we read 'makes an area attack' on p268 to mean 'makes an area attack roll'. If we instead read it as 'uses an area power', the hobgoblin only gets one OA, no matter how many goblins start their turns in the cloud.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd argue that sustaining doesn't provoke because it's a minor action. If my action is well, 'minor' enough that it's not even a standard action, then it doesn't seem like it would leave me open to an OA.

Not even a standard action? Like, say, a move action?

But apart from that - there are minor action ranged powers, and they provoke. For example. Divine Bodyguard, Paladin 6, is a minor action to use, but since it's a ranged power, it will provoke an OA.

-Hyp.

 

[Xris Robin]

Not even a standard action? Like, say, a move action?

But apart from that - there are minor action ranged powers, and they provoke. For example. Divine Bodyguard, Paladin 6, is a minor action to use, but since it's a ranged power, it will provoke an OA.

-Hyp.

A move or standard can be used as a minor... but a minor is always a minor. I didn't know offhand there were minor attacks that could provoke, but I'd still make the argument to my DM.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I didn't know offhand there were minor attacks that could provoke, but I'd still make the argument to my DM.

There are standard actions that can provoke an OA, move actions that can provoke an OA, minor actions, immediate actions, and even free actions that can provoke an OA. The type of action is irrelevant.

What's relevant is a/ are you moving out of a square adjacent to an enemy?, or b/ are you using a ranged or area power in a square adjacent to an enemy?

Also, if you say "Sustain Minor shouldn't provoke because it's not a standard action" (ignoring all the other ways you can provoke that are not standard actions), what would you say for a power like Seal of Binding, a ranged power with "Sustain Standard"? Would you say the sustain provokes, or not?

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

Consider Freezing Cloud (Wiz 1). It's an Area power, with an attack line... and an effect that any creature that enters the cloud or starts its turn there is subject to another attack (the cloud lasts until the end of your next turn).

So the wizard casts Freezing Cloud encompassing five goblins, say; it's an area power, he provokes an OA from the adjacent hobgoblin. End of the wizard's turn.

Next, it's a goblin's turn, and he's starting his turn in the area of the cloud, so he's subject to an attack. If we assume that on p268, 'ranged attack' means 'any time you make a ranged attack roll', and 'area attack' means 'any time you make an area attack roll', then this goblin who is subject to an area attack means the wizard makes an area attack roll, provoking an OA... and since it's a new combatant's turn (the goblin's), the hobgoblin can take an opportunity action, and hits the wizard.

Now it's another goblin's turn; he takes an area attack from the cloud, and the hobgoblin takes an OA on the wizard.

A third goblin? Another OA.

All in all, the wizard takes six OAs from the hobgoblin before his next turn... each one of a different combatant's turn. And if the hobgoblin can convince more minions to enter the cloud, he can get more OAs.

All of this assumes that we read 'makes an area attack' on p268 to mean 'makes an area attack roll'. If we instead read it as 'uses an area power', the hobgoblin only gets one OA, no matter how many goblins start their turns in the cloud.

-Hyp.

This is a much stronger argument, Hyp. Well done.

Back to "sustain causing OAs":
You are saying that since a PC can only "use" a daily power once per day, the act of "using" occurs only when you first use the power? Put another way, "use a power" is a techical phrase (meaning "activate")?

 

[Hypersmurf]

You are saying that since a PC can only "use" a daily power once per day, the act of "using" occurs only when you first use the power? Put another way, "use a power" is a techical phrase (meaning "activate")?

Right.

There are certain feats this may interact with - some say "Powers with the X keyword do Y", while others say "Do Y when you use a power with the X keyword".

-Hyp.

 

[cmbarona]

I agree that sustaining in general does not provoke. Now, I don't have my book here, but I was under the impression that making a ranged attack, as one does when one sustains flaming sphere, provokes. It's not the sustaining, it's the attacking.

Unless you can only provoke if you "use a power." Are basic ranged attacks "powers"? Because they certainly provoke.

Yes, basic ranged attacks are powers. Yes, they provoke OAs. But they are not the items under question here. The issue becomes complex when additional lines appear, as is the case for Flaming Sphere. In fact, "attacking" isn't even the question here, since a Wizard doen't actually attack with a flaming sphere. The Wizard conjures the sphere, which then attacks 1) of its own presence, and 2) as a result of mental commands of the Wizard.

Everyone would agree that the initial conjuration of the sphere provokes OAs. The same is essentially true for ranged basic attacks. What's up in the air is what happens as a result of those extra lines in the flaming sphere power entry, which I'll be the first to admit is ambiguous given the quotes presented in this thread so far. I would rule that the initial casting and ONLY the initial casting provokes OAs, but as it stands, this is just that, a ruling. And it will remain that way until we get an official response from CS or Erratas defining exactly what "using" a power means.

 

[jbear]

A power with the sustain option seems like its meant to be more powerful, somewhat like a stance. If it provoked OA it would be nerfed.

Without getting into a battle of legality, instead coming from a 'how do I want to interpret that to make it fair for everyone at the table' angle I wouldn't rule that sustain provoked OA. I can only think that in the OP's group there's no wizard ... but then again I can think of warlock and cleric powers that also have sustain just off the top of my head.

Although I admit I dont know the MM well enough to say (my group is low level and we move quite slowly as we're all parents with very young kids) but I would image the PC's are going to be sustaining powers more often than most monsters so maybe the OP's DM has done him and his group a favour in the long run.

 

[cheshire_grin]

Effect: You conjure a Medium flaming sphere that occupies a square within range, and the sphere attacks.

Nobody's mentioned this yet, but note the last part of that sentence.

You conjure the sphere (a use of a ranged power, thus provoking OAs).

The sphere attacks.

Thus if anyone is provoking OAs, it's the sphere, not you.