Sustaining a power provokes OAs?

[Milambus]

Unless you can only provoke if you "use a power." Are basic ranged attacks "powers"? Because they certainly provoke.

"A basic attack is an at-will power that everyone possesses, regardless of class." PHB pg 287 Below that they give power blocks for both Melee and Ranged Basic Attacks just like the class powers.

Now, I don't have my book here, but I was under the impression that making a ranged attack, as one does when one sustains flaming sphere, provokes.

This is incorrect. Pg 290 defines the general things that provoke (other specific rules override this), and it states:
- "If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy."
- "In an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy."

It says more than that, but those are the exact actions that provoke an attack.

Which brought use to the definition of the word "use", which the last several posts have been about.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unless the specific wording of the power overrides the 1/day general rule, which it does when it says that you can make additional attacks with it.

An example of specific wording overriding the usual limit on powers is Healing Word - an encounter power with the Encounter (Special) keyword, and the note "You can use this power twice per encounter".

Flaming Sphere is Daily, not Daily (Special), and can't be used multiple times per day. You can attack with it more than once, but you only use the power once.

Now, I don't have my book here, but I was under the impression that making a ranged attack, as one does when one sustains flaming sphere, provokes. It's not the sustaining, it's the attacking.

Unless you can only provoke if you "use a power." Are basic ranged attacks "powers"? Because they certainly provoke.

Under Ranged Attack, p271: "If you use a ranged power..."

Under Opportunity Attack, p290: "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power..."

It's the use of a ranged power, not the making of a ranged attack roll, that provokes an OA.

And a basic attack is an at-will power, PHB p287. Ranged Basic Attack provokes, because it is the use of a ranged power.

-Hyp.

 

[tiornys]

If we define making the attack next round as "using" Flaming Sphere, then it's forbidden.

Flaming Sphere is a Daily Power. PHB p54: "A daily power can be used once per day." If I used the Daily Power, Flaming Sphere, last round, and what I want to do this round is considered to be using Flaming Sphere, then I'm not allowed to do it.

Using a ranged power provokes an OA. A daily power can be used once per day. Therefore a daily ranged power can provoke an OA once per day.

-Hyp.

Apparently I have to quote text, not just reference page numbers. Your assertions regarding the text you've quoted are all correct, but your final conclusion is flawed because you missed one other key bit of text:

Opportunity Action

• Trigger: Opportunity actions allow you to take an action in response to an enemy letting its guard down. The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack (page 290). Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.

(underlining added for emphasis)

So, while I agree that you can only use Flaming Sphere once per day, I maintain that you can still attack with it multiple times per day, and that each time you attack with it, you provoke an OA.

t~

 

[Hypersmurf]

Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.

And here we strike the issue with the word 'attack' in the 4E rules.

We have powers that state "two attacks"; we have powers that have an "Attack:" line, we have attack powers (as opposed to utility powers or class features), and we have phrases like 'area attack' and 'close attack', which refer to powers with the area or close keyword whether or not they are attack powers. (A utility with the Area keyword is classed as an Area Attack, even though it isn't an attack power, for example.)

Wall of Fog is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, an area attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Feather Fall is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, a ranged attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Twin Strike, used by a Ranger with a bow, is an attack power; it has an attack line; it is a ranged attack; and it specifies 'two attacks'. Is he making a ranged attack (since he is using a power classed as a ranged attack), or is he making two ranged attacks (since the power specifies two attacks)? If he's adjacent to a Boneclaw, does he provoke one OA or two? ... or three - one for using a ranged power, and one for each of the two attacks?

I contend that while the Opportunity Action description uses the term 'ranged attack', it is using it in the sense of 'power with the Ranged keyword' (in the same way that Wall of Fog is an area attack by virtue of being a power with the Area keyword), and that we can determine this by noting that everywhere else, the less ambiguous term 'ranged power' is used.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

I agree that sustaining in general does not provoke. Now, I don't have my book here, but I was under the impression that making a ranged attack, as one does when one sustains flaming sphere, provokes. It's not the sustaining, it's the attacking.

Unless you can only provoke if you "use a power." Are basic ranged attacks "powers"? Because they certainly provoke.

Basic Ranged Attack is a power, as is any power listed in a monster's description with a circle around the icon.

And it's not the attacking, it's the using... so even a non-attack power with the Ranged attack-type will provoke.

PS, the designation of Melee, Ranged, Area, etc, are called the 'attack-type' even for non-attack powers, just so you know.

 

[DracoSuave]

And here we strike the issue with the word 'attack' in the 4E rules.

We have powers that state "two attacks"; we have powers that have an "Attack:" line, we have attack powers (as opposed to utility powers or class features), and we have phrases like 'area attack' and 'close attack', which refer to powers with the area or close keyword whether or not they are attack powers. (A utility with the Area keyword is classed as an Area Attack, even though it isn't an attack power, for example.)

Wall of Fog is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, an area attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Feather Fall is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, a ranged attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Twin Strike, used by a Ranger with a bow, is an attack power; it has an attack line; it is a ranged attack; and it specifies 'two attacks'. Is he making a ranged attack (since he is using a power classed as a ranged attack), or is he making two ranged attacks (since the power specifies two attacks)? If he's adjacent to a Boneclaw, does he provoke one OA or two? ... or three - one for using a ranged power, and one for each of the two attacks?

I contend that while the Opportunity Action description uses the term 'ranged attack', it is using it in the sense of 'power with the Ranged keyword' (in the same way that Wall of Fog is an area attack by virtue of being a power with the Area keyword), and that we can determine this by noting that everywhere else, the less ambiguous term 'ranged power' is used.

-Hyp.

You're confusing the term 'attack-type' with the definition of attack. A non-attack power can have an 'attack-type'. (p. 56. 'Even tho these terms are called 'attack types', they apply to utility powers as well as attack powers.') The existance of an attack type does not make a power an attack.

This is irrelevant by the simple fact that it is not area/ranged -attacks- that trigger Opportunity attacks, by the definition of both the area and ranged attack-types on p270, and 271. Both use the term 'Ranged Power' and 'Area Power'. Also, the description of Opportunity Attacks on p290 does not use 'attack' either. "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy."

The diffference is minimal, and comes to the same conclusion as you regarding using utility powers, however if it said 'attack' specificly anywhere, then sustain effects that include secondary attacks would provoke opportunity attacks, because they are attacks that share the attack type of the original power.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You're confusing the term 'attack-type' with the definition of attack. A non-attack power can have an 'attack-type'. (p. 56. 'Even tho these terms are called 'attack types', they apply to utility powers as well as attack powers.') The existance of an attack type does not make a power an attack.

The existence of the Area attack type makes a power an area attack. See p271 - firstly, "A ball of fire that streaks across the battlefield and explodes is an example of an area attack. A magical wall of fog that springs from the ground to obscure a dungeon corridor is another example."

Wall of Fog, a utility power, is an area attack.

Secondly, the description of the Origin Square comes under the section labelled "Area Attack". If you exclude area powers which are not attacks from the area attack section, how do you determine the rules for the Origin Square of Wall of Fog?

Thirdly, as you note, these are attack types... and all of p270 and p271 falls under the major heading "Attack Types". Since Wall of Fog is a power with an Attack Type of Area, it is described in the section labelled "Attack Types"... and the four subsections are "Melee Attack", "Ranged Attack", "Close Attack", and "Area Attack". So "Area Attack" is a phrase used to describe a power with an Attack Type of "Area", and we know that a power can have an Attack Type of "Area " without being an attack.

I agree with you that the existence of an attack type doesn't necessarily make a power an attack. It does, however, make it a melee attack, a ranged attack, a close attack, or an area attack (which are not necessarily attacks).

This is irrelevant by the simple fact that it is not area/ranged -attacks- that trigger Opportunity attacks, by the definition of both the area and ranged attack-types on p270, and 271. Both use the term 'Ranged Power' and 'Area Power'. Also, the description of Opportunity Attacks on p290 does not use 'attack' either. "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy."

The diffference is minimal, and comes to the same conclusion as you regarding using utility powers, however if it said 'attack' specificly anywhere, then sustain effects that include secondary attacks would provoke opportunity attacks, because they are attacks that share the attack type of the original power.

tiornys' point is that it does specifically say "Attack" on p268, under 'Opportunity Action'.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

The existence of the Area attack type makes a power an area attack. See p271 - firstly, "A ball of fire that streaks across the battlefield and explodes is an example of an area attack. A magical wall of fog that springs from the ground to obscure a dungeon corridor is another example."

Wall of Fog, a utility power, is an area attack.

Secondly, the description of the Origin Square comes under the section labelled "Area Attack". If you exclude area powers which are not attacks from the area attack section, how do you determine the rules for the Origin Square of Wall of Fog?

Thirdly, as you note, these are attack types... and all of p270 and p271 falls under the major heading "Attack Types". Since Wall of Fog is a power with an Attack Type of Area, it is described in the section labelled "Attack Types"... and the four subsections are "Melee Attack", "Ranged Attack", "Close Attack", and "Area Attack". So "Area Attack" is a phrase used to describe a power with an Attack Type of "Area", and we know that a power can have an Attack Type of "Area " without being an attack.

I agree with you that the existence of an attack type doesn't necessarily make a power an attack. It does, however, make it a melee attack, a ranged attack, a close attack, or an area attack (which are not necessarily attacks).

As an aside, personal is not an attack-type. There are no Personal Attacks in D&D.

tiornys' point is that it does specifically say "Attack" on p268, under 'Opportunity Action'.

-Hyp.

That section isn't the definition for Opportunity Attacks, however. That's more of a 'for instance' text, which isn't the same sort of deal.

 

[tiornys]

Wall of Fog is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, an area attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Feather Fall is a utility power; it has no "Attack" entry; it is, however, a ranged attack, and it will provoke an OA.

Neither of these are attacks, actually. They are, however, powers, and therefore provoke per the rules for Using a Power, which were quoted earlier in this thread.

Twin Strike, used by a Ranger with a bow, is an attack power; it has an attack line; it is a ranged attack; and it specifies 'two attacks'. Is he making a ranged attack (since he is using a power classed as a ranged attack), or is he making two ranged attacks (since the power specifies two attacks)? If he's adjacent to a Boneclaw, does he provoke one OA or two? ... or three - one for using a ranged power, and one for each of the two attacks?

He's using a ranged power that grants two ranged attacks. I could see an argument for three OA's, but I would rule two--one per attack.

I contend that while the Opportunity Action description uses the term 'ranged attack', it is using it in the sense of 'power with the Ranged keyword' (in the same way that Wall of Fog is an area attack by virtue of being a power with the Area keyword), and that we can determine this by noting that everywhere else, the less ambiguous term 'ranged power' is used.

-Hyp.

I agree that the rules could use a tight definition of "attack", but as we don't have that, we have to muddle through. The rules here are just ambiguous enough that both your interpretation and mine have plenty of support.

t~

 

[DracoSuave]

Neither of these are attacks, actually. They are, however, powers, and therefore provoke per the rules for Using a Power, which were quoted earlier in this thread.

He's using a ranged power that grants two ranged attacks. I could see an argument for three OA's, but I would rule two--one per attack.

It's one per eligible combatant.

'But what if he uses a power that makes ninety consecutive ranged attacks?'

It's still one.

'But what if he uses a power that makes a ranged attack, then as an effect allows a ranged basic attack, and then he spends an action point and uses that power again, for a total of four seperate attacks, from four separate attack power uses?'

It's still one.

Once you've used your one opportunity attack on that opponent's turn, it's used up and you have to wait for the next turn to come up.

I agree that the rules could use a tight definition of "attack", but as we don't have that, we have to muddle through. The rules here are just ambiguous enough that both your interpretation and mine have plenty of support.

t~