Clawed Swordmage

[fissionessence]

I was just reading through the issue 369 Bazaar of the Bizarre and came across the Feral Armor that grants the wearer a +3 1d8 light blade claw attack. Could a swordmage use this as his implement and/or weapon, or is it strictly for melee basic attacks only?

The description says 'This attack counts as a melee basic attack', but it also fully describes it as a weapon. It seems weird if you wouldn't be able to use the 'weapon' with other powers, and since it's a light blade, it seems like a swordmage could use it as his implement.

I'm imagining a really awesome clawed feral swordmage.

~

 

[Morgan_Scott82]

The swordmage could use it as his implement and use it for weapon powers.

However its not a good idea for the swordmage to do so. That basic attack is a component of the armor, however the armor offers no enhancement bonus to attacks and damage, meaning the swordmage will quickly fall behind the expected attack and damage values assumed by the base damage. Not really a problem in the heroic tier, but by the epic tier you'll be missing far more than the rules assume you will.

 

[fissionessence]

Did you read the item or just base it off of what I was saying above? It actually says stuff about including the enhancement bonus, but I wanted to avoid including the item property verbatim. You might be right still, though; I can't figure out if it's just a claw attack, or if 'claw attack' counts as a weapon you can use with any related powers. Here is the item property in the magazine:

Property: Gain a claw attack while wearing this armor: a one handed military light blade melee weapon with +3 proficiency bonus to attack rolls and deals 1d8 damage. The wearer gains proficiency with this weapon. The claw attack has an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of this armor. This attack counts as a melee basic attack.

It also has an encounter power not related to this discussion.

~

 

[Morgan_Scott82]

I hadn't looked at the item before posting my response. Based on what you posted I think you're correct and a swordmage could use it as an implement without incident or problem.

 

[DracoSuave]

The item gives you a power. It isn't technically a power of the armor, but merely an additional Basic Melee Attack using the parameters the armor tells you. It isn't, however, a weapon. Powers are not weapons. You can't use eldritch blast to fulfill ranged powers with Weapon. If it gave you an additional weapon, it'd simply say you are wielding an additional weapon.

So, unless the power you want to use is Melee Basic Attack, you can't use it as an accessory for powers.

 

[fissionessence]

I apologize if my previous post sounded accusatory or offensive; I just wasn't sure if your judgment was based on the item as seen in the magazine or as I had described it. I apologize for not including all the relevant information in my initial post.

So does no one else think a feral swordmage fighting with his claws would be awesome? What do you give up and/or gain from this arrangement. One obvious benefit is using just one magic item to enhance both armor and weapon.

~

edit: Based on DracoSuave's interpretation, my previous paragraph is moot. This ruling is what I was worried about. I'm still not completely sold either way, I think. The property description is bookended by the phrases 'Gain a claw attack while wearing this armor' at the beginning, and 'This attack counts as a melee basic attack' at the end. In the middle, though, it goes into full description of a weapon, which is what leads me to believe the armor actually grants you a weapon that you can use with other powers. It seems like if it were supposed to be just a power there would have been some way to template it as such, instead of as a property.

 

[DracoSuave]

I apologize if my previous post sounded accusatory or offensive; I just wasn't sure if your judgment was based on the item as seen in the magazine or as I had described it. I apologize for not including all the relevant information in my initial post.

So does no one else think a feral swordmage fighting with his claws would be awesome? What do you give up and/or gain from this arrangement. One obvious benefit is using just one magic item to enhance both armor and weapon.

~

edit: Based on DracoSuave's interpretation, my previous paragraph is moot. This ruling is what I was worried about. I'm still not completely sold either way, I think. The property description is bookended by the phrases 'Gain a claw attack while wearing this armor' at the beginning, and 'This attack counts as a melee basic attack' at the end. In the middle, though, it goes into full description of a weapon, which is what leads me to believe the armor actually grants you a weapon that you can use with other powers. It seems like if it were supposed to be just a power there would have been some way to template it as such, instead of as a property.

That said... if you were wanting that, and came to me with that character idea... and gave me puppy dog eyes... and drew a character sketch of your character with the claw brimming with power...

...I'd rule 0 it into letting you be awesome.

Cause, you're right, it's -cooler- if you can use it as a swordmage.

 

[James McMurray]

The item gives you a power. It isn't technically a power of the armor, but merely an additional Basic Melee Attack using the parameters the armor tells you.

I disagree. It isn't giving you a power. There is no mention of it being a power, no "at-will" tag, nor anything else that would indicate it's a power. If it gave an at-will power, it would be described like every other at-will power on an item: "Power (At will): do stuff."

It isn't, however, a weapon.

It's definitely a weapon. As per the property, it's a "a
one handed military light blade melee weapon". Also, "The wearer gains proficiency with this weapon.".

So, unless the power you want to use is Melee Basic Attack, you can't use it as an accessory for powers.

This is the only ambiguity, since it specifies that the attack is a melee basic attack. However, I see that as a clarification to ensure nobody mistakes it for a power, not a limitation.

In the end, I'd allow the attack to be used because it looks cool but is almost always going to be a poor choice of implement and weapon for the swordmage. You're saving a bit of money by combining the two, but you give up other weapon abilities/properties, and armor abilities/properties for what amounts to a cool looking rapier. The player could instead get armor that's better at being defensive and a weapon that's better at being offensive, rather than a mediocre combination of the two.

 

[DracoSuave]

Basic Melee Attack is a power, by definition.

It doesn't permit a weapon, it permits an attack, which is described as a basic melee attack. Said attack IS a power. Please check p 287 for basic melee attack. If it were a weapon, that'd be unnecessary, because weapons are accessories for the power you already have.

And it's not terrible- What's the cost for a +1 armor and +1 weapon seperately? And what is the level/cost of this item? It's also a +3 1d8 weapon you can use with a shield, -and- as a rogue, without proficiency.

This isn't bad -at all.-

 

[Ibixat]

Basic Melee Attack is a power, by definition.

It doesn't permit a weapon, it permits an attack, which is described as a basic melee attack. Said attack IS a power. Please check p 287 for basic melee attack. If it were a weapon, that'd be unnecessary, because weapons are accessories for the power you already have.

And it's not terrible- What's the cost for a +1 armor and +1 weapon seperately? And what is the level/cost of this item? It's also a +3 1d8 weapon you can use with a shield, -and- as a rogue, without proficiency.

This isn't bad -at all.-

The rogue bit intrigues me the most.

Now if you name the character any variation of wolverine/logan/weapon x/James Howlett, I would however ban you from my tables =)