Why do 4e combats grind?

[Admiral Caine]

This is a less sophisticated and mathematical proposition, and I certainly do not mean it to be in any way the sole heart of the grinding problem...

Rather this could be a contributing factor.

...but in my short lived (1st-4th level) play experience, there would sometimes be a player who just could not sort out his powers and abilities in a timely manner.

They'd look at the battlemat, look at their powers, re-read a specific power. glance back at the battlemat, sort through their dice trying to pick out the ones they need... call out their intention.. roll the dice... look back at their character sheet.. double check all their modifiers.

And this seldom changes encounter after encounter. Level after level. Often with the same powers and abilities. The same player insisting they don't need Power Cards.

(That is not to say that there are not many who don't use Power Cards who are not efficient and prepared when their turn arrives. Rather I'm just saying there's no effort to made to be organized and ready, be it with Power Cards or something else)

::shrug::

Situations like this might partially contribute to why some groups experience a grind and others do not.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is a less sophisticated and mathematical proposition, and I certainly do not mean it to be in any way the sole heart of the grinding problem...

Rather this could be a contributing factor.

...but in my short lived (1st-4th level) play experience, there would sometimes be a player who just could not sort out his powers and abilities in a timely manner.

They'd look at the battlemat, look at their powers, re-read a specific power. glance back at the battlemat, sort through their dice trying to pick out the ones they need... call out their intention.. roll the dice... look back at their character sheet.. double check all their modifiers.

And this seldom changes encounter after encounter. Level after level. Often with the same powers and abilities. The same player insisting they don't need Power Cards.

(That is not to say that there are not many who don't use Power Cards who are not efficient and prepared when their turn arrives. Rather I'm just saying there's no effort to made to be organized and ready, be it with Power Cards or something else)

::shrug::

Situations like this might partially contribute to why some groups experience a grind and others do not.

There seem to be two factors that stand for combat grind:
1) The actual length of in-game combat. Do you need 12 rounds? Do you need 4 rounds?
2) The length of each round, depending on how fast the players decide on their action and have it resolved.

I suspect if you have 4 round combats and the players are well organized, you run through 8 combats a session and have still hours of role-playing and political intrigue.
I you have 4 round combats slow players it might run okay. If you have 12 rounds combat and the players think quick and have their modifiers noted down, it might be okay.
But if you have 12 rounds combat with slow players, it's probably a horrible grind fest and you wonder if gain a level within the next 6 months!

I suppose the last 3 can be, depending on personal preferences and your priorities, things need work.

So, two strategies to handle grind seem to emerge:

1) Run parties that focus on dealing lots of damage. Striker-Heavy, classes with more "attack bonus/damage" boosts then healing abilities.

2) Learn the frigging rules and be prepared*!
Have your attack modifiers for powers and your damage bonuses written down. Use power cards for quickly referencing the specifics.



*) My current preparation is a little "paper-costly", because I basically print out my character for every session, with adjusted values and new feats or powers. I usually manage to keep it on two sheets (double page print) even at high levels (we'll see how well it works on epic). I print out the powers and have all attack and damage values pre-calculated.

 

[Shadeydm]

I'm not sure why the focus here seems to be on the number of rounds. IME the grind I experienced was directly related to the passage of real time not rounds.

 

[Herschel]

I've noticed it grinds mentally because early on, most of teh players and I are still getting used to all the abilities and options. Combat seems to be going quicker now.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think generally speaking, it is combat length that creates the sensation of grind. For me at least, it's basically when my character is down to only having at-will and basic attacks as an option - basically the point where the combat becomes just ablatively removing a bunch of hp.

I agree. In the last battle of KotS, everyone, even the villain, ran out of encounters and everyone could just use at-wills.

It started to resemble 3e combat. "I hit it with my sword. I hit it with my sword again."

 

[Rechan]

I'm not sure why the focus here seems to be on the number of rounds. IME the grind I experienced was directly related to the passage of real time not rounds.

Agreed. In 3e, I've seen fights that last 3 rounds take an hour.

 

[Delta]

Exactly how long does a combat have to be before it becomes a grind? I think that most 4e encounters are designed to fall in a range between 5-10 rounds, with a distribution on each side of that curve. IMO, I don't find this system expectation to be excessive, but what really constitutes a "grind" is a matter of taste, so others might.

I would expect on average a limit of 7, with different people having a limit from 5 to 9. I would think 10 to be too much for most anyone. See the "Magic Number 7 plus or minus 2" rule:

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Webby140]

I'd say the roles of the PCs is a key factor in this.
My group (I DM) have 3 defenders and 2 strikers... which is usually more than enough to deal with monsters for about 5 rounds.

Also, I think its affected by how quickly you run the game. I tend to move swiftly through combat after playing under a DM who would take about 3 hours on the same combat, and we were a party of 6. Thatwas a grind!!

 

[Jack7]

PCs refuse to retreat.

True dat. And that's a problem with PCs who don't really know how to fight well tactically.

But also, and this is a DM problem, often monsters won't either.

However if you injure most animals they will disengage and run at the first opportunity. They know serious wounds mean they could very well die by becoming crippled and therefore unable to hunt. So even relatively unintelligent opponents understand why injury means they should disengage, and quickly.

As for an intelligent opponent, and/or experienced opponents, they should know that it is far smarter to retreat from a battle gone bad than to stand to the death.

So either way, unintelligent opponent or intelligent opponent, they have good motives to retreat form unprofitable combats. And yet they rarely do with most DMs and I think this comes from two reasons, not many DMs or players have ever been in a real fight in which people can get hurt truly badly. And secondly, it seems cowardly and unheroic for some reason. But it ain't. In some cases it is the smartest thing anyone can do. Player or moster.

 

[frankthedm]

4e combat can easily lapse into a grind because wotc gave monsters enough HP to handle players power gamed for damage output. They have the HP total expecting to be hit by the brutal melee rogue almost every round, while the in the rounds the maul wielding fighter misses, the blaster mage and laser cleric do hit.

However if you injure most animals they will disengage and run at the first opportunity. They know serious wounds mean they could very well die by becoming crippled and therefore unable to hunt.

Not really. Non fatal Injuries tend to heal fast and clean in 4E settings.