what stinking cloud can do

[Orcus Porkus]

From a DM's perspective, the Stinking Cloud can be a challenge. In general, I try to do my best to copy the PC's tactics and damage them as much as I can with their own stink. For example, pushing the defender with his oh so high AC into the cloud is a funny surprise. He gets a save of course. In a recent climactic battle the fighter went down in his own ally's cloud. Therefore, in terms of fun, I would definitely allow forced movement into the cloud to deal damage. The rules don't explicitly prohibit it either.

I have not thought about disallowing damage when the cloud moves through creatures' space, but after reading this thread I now believe it makes sense, both in terms of RAI and RAW. When moving the cloud, nothing should be affected by it. I'm now thinking of it as some kind of dirty gust that gathers and swooshes to another location, where it then re-materializes. Creatures who start their turn there then suffer damage as intended.
Like the other wizard dailies, it's powerful, but not a save-or-die, and can be the source of grand entertainment.

 

[ricardo440]

I agree you only take the damage for a cloud in your turn. Either if You start in it or if you move into it.

If you are moved into a cloud then you don't take damage then (but will at the start of your turn)

As a PC alongside a stinking cloud and a GM, my opinion is that it is a very dominating spell in encounters where it is used. It completely redefines the battlefield. It can also be very very good especially if your team has nobody else who relies on ranged combat.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

I agree you only take the damage for a cloud in your turn. Either if You start in it or if you move into it.

If you are moved into a cloud then you don't take damage then (but will at the start of your turn)

I don't think so.

To quote the rules:

Effect: The burst creates a zone of poisonous vapor that blocks line of sight until the end of your next turn. Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage. As a move action, you can move the zone up to 6 squares.
Sustain Minor: The zone persists.

Forced movement into the cloud IMO clearly translates into "entering" the zone. It's just that moving the cloud over creatures doesn't do harm.

 

[ricardo440]

that would simply mean that creatures knocked into a cloud that then exit it and are knocked in again take double the damage that a creature that spends all its time in it.
That is absurd.

The power is just made to mean you take the damage once a round. IF it had just bee the start of your turn the wizards mates could charge into a cloud and then the wizard move it before they take the damage next round. Repeat. A wall of impenetrable LOS that does no damage to the people taking cover in it.

I for one think that if you are sensible with how you interpret the rules it elegantly describes the intentions.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

that would simply mean that creatures knocked into a cloud that then exit it and are knocked in again take double the damage that a creature that spends all its time in it.
That is absurd.

Let's play devil's advocate here: What happens to a PC who runs into the cloud, then out, and in again, in one turn?

 

[FireLance]

The power is just made to mean you take the damage once a round. IF it had just bee the start of your turn the wizards mates could charge into a cloud and then the wizard move it before they take the damage next round. Repeat. A wall of impenetrable LOS that does no damage to the people taking cover in it.

You know, I think stinking cloud could do with some sneak attack or quarry damage-like wording. Something along the lines of:

Creatures that enter the stinking cloud or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage if they have not taken damage from your stinking cloud since the start of your last turn.​

 

[evilbob]

For what it's worth (and I know that this never actually changes anyone's opinion) but the relevant customer service questions have come back specifically stating that a) you do take damage when pushed into the cloud (or similar effects) and b) you do not get to save to fall prone beforehand. Check other threads for the actual quotes. The issue with interpreting it differently is that there are a lot of other spells that have similar effects - but can't move on their own - and that is the way they really have to work that way or else they make no sense and/or are really nerfed.

Also, for those who have brought it up: please note the text does not use the word "move into" - it says "enter". If a cloud enters your space, you are entering the cloud. But, like I said, it doesn't matter because even if you do agree, no one in their right mind would use the spell that way (more than one session, anyway).


Infiniti2000: "A" is how many seem to interpret it, thus granting a small useful bonus to the spell: you can move it over allies without harm so long as it doesn't end on them. (Technically, you could even end it on them if someone else moved them away.)

However, I'd like to reiterate that the bonus "knock someone into it" damage is really just gravy. The strength of the spell comes from the facts that it only takes a move action to use it to attack again, and that it doesn't take an attack roll to hit. And those are so clearly defined in the text that no one wants to argue them.

Mal Malenkirk: the "obvious downside" is the most spectacular thing about the cloud: i.e., that it does not take a standard action to use again. You can always sack a standard for a move to get up, move, etc. - but you're still doing damage each round. Being stunned is really one of the best ways to stop it though, that's true (but that's a pretty heavy condition to throw around).


In general, it's a hard spell to counter. I've been trying to think of how I would do it myself, short of "always including a dispelling mage" or "always using enemies immune to poison (and/or necrotic, since the gloves work on it too)" - because those are so specific that it'd be pretty cheap for a DM to constantly throw guys like that at a party just to kill one power. (And un-fun for the player.) The only thing I can really come up with is to exploit its two weakest points: the damage it deals per round (low) and the concealment it grants. Just have enemies ignore the thing and get into the positions they need to be in regardless of the petty damage it throws their way - especially since it is less damage than the opportunity-attacking fighter would hit them with if he could only see them. Also, threading enemies among allies would help somewhat, if only because there would be fewer targets (altho you're setting yourself up to be flanked, which could also hurt more than the cloud). And spreading ranged guys out always helps.

And there's always the tried-and-true "throw at least 2 or 3 encounters before they can take an extended rest" thing, as well, which is honestly the best choice to me. It's only a daily, after all.

 

[Bayuer]

For what it's worth (and I know that this never actually changes anyone's opinion) but the relevant customer service questions have come back specifically stating that a) you do take damage when pushed into the cloud (or similar effects) and b) you do not get to save to fall prone beforehand. Check other threads for the actual quotes. The issue with interpreting it differently is that there are a lot of other spells that have similar effects - but can't move on their own - and that is the way they really have to work that way or else they make no sense and/or are really nerfed.

Untilt now i ruled that you can take damage only on your turn. But now I take a new aproach. You take damage from zones/walls only once per round (or once per caster turn) just like Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. Now you can be pushed into cloud and take damage. But when you turns starts you already taken damage you can go out from the cloud. When you will be pushed again into cloud you don't take damage again. New round comes. And you start your turn in cloud --> dmg. And so one. And yes. Forced movement into zones/walls don't gives you save! Belive me. That's even better. Knocking prone is very good state. Taking damage is in many situations just better option.

Moving the cloud was already explainded (and I don't remeber where, CS respose if I remeber it right), and it dosen't trigger the damage. And thats a rule that PC favor, couse it makes cloud more mobile. Your allies could block usage of it, if it will damage them when you will move the cloud.

Another option, when your fights are too long is to play it with all the nasty effects like no damage limit per round etc. That will shorten the fights for sure, but I don't like that idea.

One word about concealment. I think that answer is very simple. Remember that even fog (simple concealment) blocks line of sight! Darkness is the only totaly obscured option. So we have two options here. Light obscured or heavy obscured. When we compare the cloud over a 5 Daily Warlock power Hunger of Hadar we see that here it darkness (totaly obscured) but we don't have mobility of the cloud and the zone is much smaler. Poisonous vapors. What is the most similar option descirbed in the rules? Fog? Correct. So just simple -2 to attack rolls.

 

[evilbob]

Moving the cloud was already explainded (and I don't remeber where, CS respose if I remeber it right), and it dosen't trigger the damage.

I'm interested in this quote if you can find it.

What is the most similar option descirbed in the rules? Fog? Correct. So just simple -2 to attack rolls.

I think it's less simple than that, though; if you only have a -2 to attacks, you can still target people in the cloud. The -5 means you can't even target them; you have to guess their square. To me this is simpler, and downplays the cloud power a bit - but to each his own. It's certainly not clear.

FireLance: That is a good way to go, too. The only downside is that it encourages tagging someone with the cloud and then moving it away so it's not a nuisance, since you really don't have to have anyone standing -in- it to do damage, but that's not really too big. The power in this situation depends even more on how you interpret the "enter" statement, since moving the cloud around to hit each enemy once would be even easier - although you'd have to be much more careful about allies. But, if it doesn't count when you move the cloud onto someone you could be lowering the total damage a bit since the push/pull thing wouldn't come up as much. Also, another negative is that an enemy (or an ally) who has already been hit with the cloud could just run into it for defensive bonuses, since they won't take damage again till next turn anyway, and that's a bit weird.

 

[Bagpuss]

From what I've seen from CS

"Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage."

Creatures entering the zone means either they move into it, or a forced into it via forced movement, IE: they enter the zones space. If the zone enters your space, that is not the same as you entering the zones space. Hence if you move it on top of a creature it does not take damage... (at least until it starts it's turn in the zone).

Related.

Damaging spell effects do not count as hindering terrain, and so monsters do not get a saving throw to avoid forced movement into them. It makes no difference if it's a cloud of daggers or a wall of fire.