BryonD
Hero
Again, I'm certain it is a positive for you. That has nothing to do with my point.
How about: take your own advice?
Changeover Poll
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
My favorite race, the Hydrans, were the first race to pioneer the Fighter.
These nasty little things are not like the ships in Star Wars. They are not like World War II line of sight, line of fire, ships. They are far more sophisticated ... they employ computers to target their weapons with devastating accuracy, and they have heavy shielding (it takes the equivalent of a 20 megaton explosion to destroy one, or what we would call 8 points of weapons damage.)
Fighters can be flown by pilots, but the sensical approach is that they are computer controlled, since they are considered *totally* expendable, and are regularly expended as Standard Procedure. Flying a Fighter is only for those with a death wish.
So, why didn't the Hydrans mess everyone over?
The Hydrans were just a little *too* retro. They got their fighters, and their weapons (the Fusion Beam, the Phaser-G) and sat on them. They did not develop anything new until almost the General War.
When they developed new weaponry (the Hellbore) they wasted it in that Grand Disaster known as the Flight of the Expeditionary Fleet.
What the Hydrans were good at, *had* to be good at, was Playing Chicken.
As you know, when you are closing with an enemy ship, you and that ship do not fire simultaneously - one or the other fires first.
If I fire first, and devastate your ship, your weapons are damaged, and you cannot fire back!! Now, you're toast (or, prisoners in our methane atmosphere, which amounts to the same thing ... Klingons take no prisoners, and we Hydrans don't like you.)
My Fusion Beams are TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL weapon ... IF I close to 10,000 kilometers or less. It is fair to 20,000 kilometers. It is lousy beyond that.
My Phaser-Gatlings are useless beyond 20,000 kilometers, but within that range they are one-weapon wrecking crews.
My fighters carry one or both weapons. They are closing on your ship also.
Your disruptors are extremely good to 80,000 kilometers, your Phaser-IIs out to 50,000 kilometers. Your drones lock on and can blow my fighters (and my ship) to smithereens, if they can get through.
So, I am coming right at you, and you right at me. Both our Front Shields are at 100%.
Now, we are at 50,000 kilometers and closing. You could fire! You could fire, do maximum damage, while still out of range of my weapons!
But you cannot do enough damage, to do more than down my Front Shield. You cannot seriously damage my ship. (My fighters and your drones took each other out.)
So, will you dare to close to where your weapons work better? If you do, I may get you to point blank range. If I do, you will damage my ship (if you get a chance to fire) but *your* ship will be destroyed. Fusion Beams and Phaser-Gatlings tend to do that, at point blank range. I can Overload those Fusion Beams, or even Suicide Overload them. Phaser-Gs can be overloaded. You will not survive.
But if you fire, then turn to run (known as a High Speed Turn), then I just may catch you anyways, and fire through your weak Rear Shield ... goodbye Klingons!
Or I'll hold my fire, speed up, and catch you next turn, when your rear to me and your weapons turned away, and I'll fry you before you can turn around and fight.
So, you choose to close. 50,000 kilometers. You do not fire. Neither do I.
40,000. You could do so much damage, and I could still do only minimal! But I do not fire, and neither do you.
30,000! All your weapons will hit. You could still turn away. You might even evade me. Will you fire? I have not. Make up your mind!! ... I will be on you in seconds!
20,000! You fire! Everything! Alpha Strike! My shield is downed! My ship is damaged! I didn't fire, and some of my weapons are destroyed.
You blew it.
I close to point blank range, fire everything I have, and even with only partial weaponry, my Suicide Overloaded Fusion Beams and overloaded PH-Gs are too much. Chalk up another Fried Klingon Ship.
Of course, this game of Chicken includes my fighters, your drones, ECM and ECCM, shuttles, and of course the infamous transporter bombs. Things get pretty hairy when you go toe-to-toe with any ship, much less a Hydran ship. Did you expect it to be any other way?
There is one hard and fast rule you know, that all Klingons know, and it is both an advantage and a curse:
I WILL try to close to point-blank range. As a Hydran, that is my bread and butter. I will try to sucker you into that trap at all costs. And all those fighters of mine, WILL be sacrificed to achieve this ultimate goal (since it costs virtually nothing to rebuild fighters, the Hydran Kingdom loses nothing here.)
There will be no pity, no mercy, only ruthless cunning to trick you into that point-blank encounter. If you fall for it, your vaporized remains are another trophy for the Hydran Kingdom, I go on to be promoted, and you - if you escaped in the Boom - are executed for incompetency by the Klingon Empire.
The way it should be. You stinking Klingons, you think you can overrun the Hydran Kingdom? Ha, ha, ha. You might as well wish those lofty Federation types would just submit to your so-called superior firepower, and allow you to annex them.
All THIS, and we haven't gotten into the Hellbore Cannon. Oh no ... there are worse things than Fusion Beams out there. There are Surprises you don't want to meet. They say Klingons fear nothing. Well, we'll teach you fear.
But even with our Retro weapons, our Fusion Beams, we can accomplish quite enough. As you well know.
THE Retro Weapon of Star Fleet Battles, the Fusion Cannon, the primary Heavy Weapon of my favorite race, the Hydrans, for most of the time prior to the General War.
Go Retro!
These nasty little things are not like the ships in Star Wars. They are not like World War II line of sight, line of fire, ships. They are far more sophisticated ... they employ computers to target their weapons with devastating accuracy, and they have heavy shielding (it takes the equivalent of a 20 megaton explosion to destroy one, or what we would call 8 points of weapons damage.)
Fighters can be flown by pilots, but the sensical approach is that they are computer controlled, since they are considered *totally* expendable, and are regularly expended as Standard Procedure. Flying a Fighter is only for those with a death wish.
So, why didn't the Hydrans mess everyone over?
The Hydrans were just a little *too* retro. They got their fighters, and their weapons (the Fusion Beam, the Phaser-G) and sat on them. They did not develop anything new until almost the General War.
When they developed new weaponry (the Hellbore) they wasted it in that Grand Disaster known as the Flight of the Expeditionary Fleet.
What the Hydrans were good at, *had* to be good at, was Playing Chicken.
As you know, when you are closing with an enemy ship, you and that ship do not fire simultaneously - one or the other fires first.
If I fire first, and devastate your ship, your weapons are damaged, and you cannot fire back!! Now, you're toast (or, prisoners in our methane atmosphere, which amounts to the same thing ... Klingons take no prisoners, and we Hydrans don't like you.)
My Fusion Beams are TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL weapon ... IF I close to 10,000 kilometers or less. It is fair to 20,000 kilometers. It is lousy beyond that.
My Phaser-Gatlings are useless beyond 20,000 kilometers, but within that range they are one-weapon wrecking crews.
My fighters carry one or both weapons. They are closing on your ship also.
Your disruptors are extremely good to 80,000 kilometers, your Phaser-IIs out to 50,000 kilometers. Your drones lock on and can blow my fighters (and my ship) to smithereens, if they can get through.
So, I am coming right at you, and you right at me. Both our Front Shields are at 100%.
Now, we are at 50,000 kilometers and closing. You could fire! You could fire, do maximum damage, while still out of range of my weapons!
But you cannot do enough damage, to do more than down my Front Shield. You cannot seriously damage my ship. (My fighters and your drones took each other out.)
So, will you dare to close to where your weapons work better? If you do, I may get you to point blank range. If I do, you will damage my ship (if you get a chance to fire) but *your* ship will be destroyed. Fusion Beams and Phaser-Gatlings tend to do that, at point blank range. I can Overload those Fusion Beams, or even Suicide Overload them. Phaser-Gs can be overloaded. You will not survive.
But if you fire, then turn to run (known as a High Speed Turn), then I just may catch you anyways, and fire through your weak Rear Shield ... goodbye Klingons!
Or I'll hold my fire, speed up, and catch you next turn, when your rear to me and your weapons turned away, and I'll fry you before you can turn around and fight.
So, you choose to close. 50,000 kilometers. You do not fire. Neither do I.
40,000. You could do so much damage, and I could still do only minimal! But I do not fire, and neither do you.
30,000! All your weapons will hit. You could still turn away. You might even evade me. Will you fire? I have not. Make up your mind!! ... I will be on you in seconds!
20,000! You fire! Everything! Alpha Strike! My shield is downed! My ship is damaged! I didn't fire, and some of my weapons are destroyed.
You blew it.
I close to point blank range, fire everything I have, and even with only partial weaponry, my Suicide Overloaded Fusion Beams and overloaded PH-Gs are too much. Chalk up another Fried Klingon Ship.
Of course, this game of Chicken includes my fighters, your drones, ECM and ECCM, shuttles, and of course the infamous transporter bombs. Things get pretty hairy when you go toe-to-toe with any ship, much less a Hydran ship. Did you expect it to be any other way?
There is one hard and fast rule you know, that all Klingons know, and it is both an advantage and a curse:
I WILL try to close to point-blank range. As a Hydran, that is my bread and butter. I will try to sucker you into that trap at all costs. And all those fighters of mine, WILL be sacrificed to achieve this ultimate goal (since it costs virtually nothing to rebuild fighters, the Hydran Kingdom loses nothing here.)
There will be no pity, no mercy, only ruthless cunning to trick you into that point-blank encounter. If you fall for it, your vaporized remains are another trophy for the Hydran Kingdom, I go on to be promoted, and you - if you escaped in the Boom - are executed for incompetency by the Klingon Empire.
The way it should be. You stinking Klingons, you think you can overrun the Hydran Kingdom? Ha, ha, ha. You might as well wish those lofty Federation types would just submit to your so-called superior firepower, and allow you to annex them.
All THIS, and we haven't gotten into the Hellbore Cannon. Oh no ... there are worse things than Fusion Beams out there. There are Surprises you don't want to meet. They say Klingons fear nothing. Well, we'll teach you fear.
But even with our Retro weapons, our Fusion Beams, we can accomplish quite enough. As you well know.
THE Retro Weapon of Star Fleet Battles, the Fusion Cannon, the primary Heavy Weapon of my favorite race, the Hydrans, for most of the time prior to the General War.
Go Retro!
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
So yeah, as a Hydran Player of many years in SFB, stuck with the Fusion Beam (as I said, and most would agree, *the* Retro Weapon of that game), I can discuss Retro.
I can Talk Shop on Retro. I know what it is to do with the Older and the Outdated.
Hellbores? They are the 4E of the Hydran Fleet (many would disagree with that, but that's an analogy.)
They are new and better. They are desirable. They are the Latest Thing (and they also are a terrifying weapon that makes even *me* want to sympathize with the Klingons.)
But I can go Retro. I have those Fusion Beams. Let's have that little game of Chicken. Cmon Klingon Commander, lets do some Chicken.
I ... can't wait for the inevitable outcome! (maniacal laugh of glee.) It's a party, a slugfest party, and you're invited! An invitation I will not allow you to refuse!
Hellbores? A cool weapon. A grand weapon. The Latest Thing. The 4E thing.
I fire my Hellbores, and fully HALF the damage goes through your weakest shield, regardless of whether you are facing me or not. I can Overload Hellbores, and their range is tremendous.
From 80,000 kilometers, I can down your rear shield and damage your ship with my Hellbores, and you can't touch me.
The next time around (I simply turned and recharged, then closed again) I smash your ship, tremendous power coming through the downed shield.
You might as well surrender now, Klingon Scum. Because then I *might* take prisoners. You might even be allowed to live as a menial worker in the mines of Hydrax, if you behave yourself as a cooperative prisoner.
But, Earlier Editions (Fusion Beams and PH-Gs, and fighters) or 4E (Hellbores, PH-Gs, and some fighters) I still win.
I always win.
I represent the Hydran Kingdom, and you are the pathetic Klingons, so weep and curse in despair! The Hydrans, cometh!
In D&D, I win with either 4E or any Earlier Edition.
In SFB, I win with any Hydran ship, with any weapon. Be it Retro or the Latest, the Hydran Always Wins. : )
I can Talk Shop on Retro. I know what it is to do with the Older and the Outdated.
Hellbores? They are the 4E of the Hydran Fleet (many would disagree with that, but that's an analogy.)
They are new and better. They are desirable. They are the Latest Thing (and they also are a terrifying weapon that makes even *me* want to sympathize with the Klingons.)
But I can go Retro. I have those Fusion Beams. Let's have that little game of Chicken. Cmon Klingon Commander, lets do some Chicken.
I ... can't wait for the inevitable outcome! (maniacal laugh of glee.) It's a party, a slugfest party, and you're invited! An invitation I will not allow you to refuse!
Hellbores? A cool weapon. A grand weapon. The Latest Thing. The 4E thing.
I fire my Hellbores, and fully HALF the damage goes through your weakest shield, regardless of whether you are facing me or not. I can Overload Hellbores, and their range is tremendous.
From 80,000 kilometers, I can down your rear shield and damage your ship with my Hellbores, and you can't touch me.
The next time around (I simply turned and recharged, then closed again) I smash your ship, tremendous power coming through the downed shield.
You might as well surrender now, Klingon Scum. Because then I *might* take prisoners. You might even be allowed to live as a menial worker in the mines of Hydrax, if you behave yourself as a cooperative prisoner.
But, Earlier Editions (Fusion Beams and PH-Gs, and fighters) or 4E (Hellbores, PH-Gs, and some fighters) I still win.
I always win.
I represent the Hydran Kingdom, and you are the pathetic Klingons, so weep and curse in despair! The Hydrans, cometh!
In D&D, I win with either 4E or any Earlier Edition.
In SFB, I win with any Hydran ship, with any weapon. Be it Retro or the Latest, the Hydran Always Wins. : )
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
So, all my talk of SFB, is not so off-topic as it seems. It relates directly to the so-called Edition Wars.
The Hydrans were content with Retro or Advanced. And so am I, with their weapons of any kind.
And so am I, with any Edition of D&D. Retro or the Latest!
Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith
(Incidentally, the Hydrans *did* have their own Edition Wars. Some hated the Fusion Beam, some hated the Hellbore Cannon. But all lived with what they had, and they accomplished quite a lot with it.
Had they not been overly confident and sent the Expeditionary Fleet to it's doom, they might have fared far better in the General War. THAT was a matter of mismanagement, but it was unrelated to any Edition War!)
(EDIT: What did the Hydrans do that was so catastrophic? They sent one of their four fleets, with 20 ships, right into the heart of the Klingon Empire, trying to break through to the Federation. The Klingons sicced about a hundred ships on them. The result was inevitable. The Federation ... curse their cowardly spines! ... refused to enter the war on the excuse that no Hydran ship reached their border. Those chickens! Bawk ... bawk, bawk ... bawk!)
The Hydrans were content with Retro or Advanced. And so am I, with their weapons of any kind.
And so am I, with any Edition of D&D. Retro or the Latest!
Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith
(Incidentally, the Hydrans *did* have their own Edition Wars. Some hated the Fusion Beam, some hated the Hellbore Cannon. But all lived with what they had, and they accomplished quite a lot with it.
Had they not been overly confident and sent the Expeditionary Fleet to it's doom, they might have fared far better in the General War. THAT was a matter of mismanagement, but it was unrelated to any Edition War!)
(EDIT: What did the Hydrans do that was so catastrophic? They sent one of their four fleets, with 20 ships, right into the heart of the Klingon Empire, trying to break through to the Federation. The Klingons sicced about a hundred ships on them. The result was inevitable. The Federation ... curse their cowardly spines! ... refused to enter the war on the excuse that no Hydran ship reached their border. Those chickens! Bawk ... bawk, bawk ... bawk!)
Last edited:
Greylock
First Post
I can, off the top of my head, list five people I know in real life who stopped posting here because of the "hysterical" and over-the-top response to 4th edition, who felt shouted down whenever they said anything good about prior editions, not just 3.x. Yes, I recognize that things are a little different now, but ENWorld lost those guys. They don't come by at all anymore.
I saw several people here fade away or stop posting because of how they were treated for enjoying previous editions, or having the nerve to say 4e wasn't perfect. They weren't 4e haters in the slightest, and yet these forums became very, very hostile to anyone in an almost religious manner to anyone who disliked anything about 4e. Even people who DID like 4e were shouted down and insulted for claiming there were parts of the game they weren't keen on. Celtavian's thread was the biggest "Oh what the hell" moment for me, when he, a very long time and intelligent poster, said nothing more then "Well, I tried 4e, and I didn't like it." The rest of the thread were other posters insulting him, screaming at him, and telling him to leave the forums and never return.
merelycompetent
First Post
I really hope that this hatred passes soon. I really miss the constructive discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of the various rules, mods, and editions. It made converting from 2E to 3E (and later to 3.5E) a LOT easier. Now, the really good ideas are getting lost or stifled by a lot of overwrought reactions and re-reactions because person A does not like the exact same game that person B does. I'm certainly missing those conversion, improvement, and *fun* ideas for 4E.
We're losing a lot of good input from talented and imaginative people. Every time someone from WotC (who can offer direct insight into HOW and WHY something was changed) posts, the responses get more extreme. I don't blame them for avoiding the message boards.
I think this poll shows why people are getting so defensive in their responses. And I would give blood to hear what the 4E designers think.
(Not necessarily MY blood, mind you. But definitely some from that goblin in the next room...)
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(solemnly)
People leaving ENWorld over the edition change?
People giving up the hobby over things?
People losing friends, turning their back on their friends, over this?
People wrecking gaming groups, turning messageboards into Flame Wars, destroying their own gaming material, throwing their gaming material away, over this?
Hatred? A mass outpouring of hatred?
Violent anger?
People hurling the most virulent of assaults on others?
People willing to get themselves Banned, even Permabanned, over this?
-
Folks, I've seen all of the above, and more. And I have something to say here.
The decision to change over to 4E, and to *FORCE* everyone else to change (or else), was dreamed up by a few people (who are unknown, and probably not there anymore) at the very top of the echelon of Hasbro, unknown Corporate Executive Officers who saw things only in terms of a Hard World and the Bottom Line.
Same thing with the decision to take back and shut down Dragon and Dungeon Magazine.
This is not something done by the lower echelons of Hasbro. It was not done by the spokespeople of Hasbro.
This was not done by anyone at WOTC. They must do what Hasbro tells them, or truly it is 'else.'
This was not done by anyone who worked for TSR.
This was not done by anyone running or admining at a messageboard.
This was not done by anyone posting to ENWorld.
This was not done by anyone posting to any other gaming board.
This was done by few nebulous people at the very top of Hasbro, people whose names I do not know, most do not know, and perhaps nobody knows since nobody knows who made the decisions, it seems.
It will not help, to hate, to be angry, and to take both out on the innocent.
All that will do, is make the situation for our Hobby worse.
I think that if we must have a 'Flame War', why not have a merry Flame War over which weapon is better, Hydran Fusion Beams or the Hydran Hellbore, or Klingon Disruptors versus Federation Photon Torpedoes?
NO amount of hate, anger, or vitrol is going to change (or even influence in the slightest way) the thinking of those who made (and make) the decisions.
All we can do is stand together as a group, we the Gamers, and hope for the best that can be. And do as we wish to do, regardless of what they tell us to do.
If *I* told you that you *had* to use Gemidan's Paralytic Missile in your game (2nd level, autokill, better than Power Word Stun which is 7th) you'd be pretty upset at me, no?
And you'd very nicely *ignore* me (which is what you should do!)
Well then, play the game you want to play, and don't worry about what they tell you to do, since they *can't* tell you what to do. That is a physical impossibility ... even if a few nebulous people don't realize that.
I'll say it again: it is not 3E versus 4E. It is 3E *AND* 4E. AND all the Other Editions. AND all the Other Stuff.
YOU are the ones with the final say. YOU are the DMs here. Not those few nebulous people.
Do you want Dragon and Dungeon back? It will happen, eventually ... even if they don't call the magazines by those names. Because you want them, and you will find another magazine and make it into what you have lost.
YOU are King and Queen here. YOU are the Final Arbiters here.
And I believe that WOTC is fully on your side (yes, that includes those that are ardent 4E supporters ... they have a right to support their favorite version of the game, of course!)
Everyone who understands, knows that the Only Way is Your Way, and Your Way is what you choose.
Nobody can ever take your position of Final Arbiter away from you. Ever. It is physically impossible. Think about it, and see the truth in this. The DM is the DM, not the player, and you are the DM.
Edena_of_Neith
People leaving ENWorld over the edition change?
People giving up the hobby over things?
People losing friends, turning their back on their friends, over this?
People wrecking gaming groups, turning messageboards into Flame Wars, destroying their own gaming material, throwing their gaming material away, over this?
Hatred? A mass outpouring of hatred?
Violent anger?
People hurling the most virulent of assaults on others?
People willing to get themselves Banned, even Permabanned, over this?
-
Folks, I've seen all of the above, and more. And I have something to say here.
The decision to change over to 4E, and to *FORCE* everyone else to change (or else), was dreamed up by a few people (who are unknown, and probably not there anymore) at the very top of the echelon of Hasbro, unknown Corporate Executive Officers who saw things only in terms of a Hard World and the Bottom Line.
Same thing with the decision to take back and shut down Dragon and Dungeon Magazine.
This is not something done by the lower echelons of Hasbro. It was not done by the spokespeople of Hasbro.
This was not done by anyone at WOTC. They must do what Hasbro tells them, or truly it is 'else.'
This was not done by anyone who worked for TSR.
This was not done by anyone running or admining at a messageboard.
This was not done by anyone posting to ENWorld.
This was not done by anyone posting to any other gaming board.
This was done by few nebulous people at the very top of Hasbro, people whose names I do not know, most do not know, and perhaps nobody knows since nobody knows who made the decisions, it seems.
It will not help, to hate, to be angry, and to take both out on the innocent.
All that will do, is make the situation for our Hobby worse.
I think that if we must have a 'Flame War', why not have a merry Flame War over which weapon is better, Hydran Fusion Beams or the Hydran Hellbore, or Klingon Disruptors versus Federation Photon Torpedoes?
NO amount of hate, anger, or vitrol is going to change (or even influence in the slightest way) the thinking of those who made (and make) the decisions.
All we can do is stand together as a group, we the Gamers, and hope for the best that can be. And do as we wish to do, regardless of what they tell us to do.
If *I* told you that you *had* to use Gemidan's Paralytic Missile in your game (2nd level, autokill, better than Power Word Stun which is 7th) you'd be pretty upset at me, no?
And you'd very nicely *ignore* me (which is what you should do!)
Well then, play the game you want to play, and don't worry about what they tell you to do, since they *can't* tell you what to do. That is a physical impossibility ... even if a few nebulous people don't realize that.
I'll say it again: it is not 3E versus 4E. It is 3E *AND* 4E. AND all the Other Editions. AND all the Other Stuff.
YOU are the ones with the final say. YOU are the DMs here. Not those few nebulous people.
Do you want Dragon and Dungeon back? It will happen, eventually ... even if they don't call the magazines by those names. Because you want them, and you will find another magazine and make it into what you have lost.
YOU are King and Queen here. YOU are the Final Arbiters here.
And I believe that WOTC is fully on your side (yes, that includes those that are ardent 4E supporters ... they have a right to support their favorite version of the game, of course!)
Everyone who understands, knows that the Only Way is Your Way, and Your Way is what you choose.
Nobody can ever take your position of Final Arbiter away from you. Ever. It is physically impossible. Think about it, and see the truth in this. The DM is the DM, not the player, and you are the DM.
Edena_of_Neith
I probably come off as a knee-jerk grognard most of the time. In fact, cancel that knee part. But I really think that OD&D 1974 is the best edition, even though it was before my time!
However, when it comes to the beloved Star Fleet Universe... I'm a Federation Commander man. SFB is too complicated, dog! I just want to get in there and mix it up... I don't want to fill out a bunch of IRS forms.
I'm mostly a Fed and a Lyran man. Though I'm going to be running a Hydran Monarch BB in our next session. That thing's a bear! Good thing for my gallant kitties that the Hydrans never got one of them built! I hate to think how long the shields on that sucker would take to sabre-dance away.
This is a very one sided account of things.
There were asshats on both sides of the argument. I have seen just as much ridiculous over the top hyperbole from those who didnt like the new edition and just as much screaming incoherent hysteria.
Some of those people still post here, some of them are posting in this thread.
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