Changeover Poll

[Wulf Ratbane]

I wonder why you wonder this. Could you elaborate?

My guess would be that experience with the game that close to the source could have an effect on the quality of one's experience. The ease of rules clarifications, the DM's familiarity with the rules, etc., would all influence how the game was run- especially how smoothly it was run- and thus, lead to a more positive experience.

Right. That, as well as the possibility that if 4e is the game you want to play, then possibly (hopefully) your playtest feedback had something to do with that-- with shaping a game that meets your needs.

There's a couple of different converse corollaries to that.

 

[Roman]

I have not tried 4E and have no intention of doing so. The several looks at the rules I have had were sufficient for me to determine that 3.X edition and the Pathfinder RPG are more suitable to both my DMing and playing needs.

 

[Zustiur]

(Rats. Nobody expounded on my ECM discourse. There are truly nasty things one can do with ECM, far more clever and far worse than anything I've described.)

I'm probably not a good example of the average ENworlder, but I totally failed to see the relevance, or the humour in your tale. I thought this was a thread about D&D, and I keep finding all these random posts about Star Trek... I just don't get it. I nearly complained (in thread) last time there was a series of posts about it, but chose to let the matter drop. This time I couldn't stop myself.

 

[love.christine]

Still playing 3e/Pathfinder.

Also playing 4E.

Both groups are going pretty darn strong. We're starting to warap up the 3E game, but I'll be GMing the next Pathfinder game.

 

[Dragon Snack]

Right. That, as well as the possibility that if 4e is the game you want to play, then possibly (hopefully) your playtest feedback had something to do with that-- with shaping a game that meets your needs.

That's assuming they paid attention to the playtest feedback you gave and if you saw the final version. I know a few people who were involved in the 4.0 playtest and they aren't overwhelming fans of it (none of them give it glowing praise and one of them outright hates it), although they are currently playing it.

I've been involved in playtests before where I wondered why I bothered giving feedback (sometimes they even kept misprints that I pointed out) and since playtesters rarely see the final version, often things are changed after they've seen them (the last playest I was in saw the race I played rewritten at least 3 times and, judging from the pregens I've seen, they appear to have been rewritten again).

 

[BryonD]

Wow.

So far, 4e is more successful over at RPG.net than over here an ENWorld! What does that say?

(Granted the numbers have changed since this post, but)

To me it says something that only 56% mostly to complete changeover and 33% non-change is viewed (by some, not necessarily Toben) as the vindicating counter-poll. Rather than "more successful" there, it seems to me more precise to say that things are even worse here. Particularly if you consider that it appears the "new shiny" phase is already done and player attrition is already starting.

This poll claims that they lost 55-60% of the prior fan base. But wait, this other poll says they only lost 33-40%. Sounds like a distinction in degree of pummeling to me. Even if you assume that this poll is completely worthless and that poll is valid, it is still a kick in the teeth.

 

[garyh]

(Granted the numbers have changed since this post, but)

To me it says something that only 56% mostly to complete changeover and 33% non-change is viewed (by some, not necessarily Toben) as the vindicating counter-poll. Rather than "more successful" there, it seems to me more precise to say that things are even worse here. Particularly if you consider that it appears the "new shiny" phase is already done and player attrition is already starting.

This poll claims that they lost 55-60% of the prior fan base. But wait, this other poll says they only lost 33-40%. Sounds like a distinction in degree of pummeling to me. Even if you assume that this poll is completely worthless and that poll is valid, it is still a kick in the teeth.

So, assuming there was a way to really know the actual percent changeover of all D&D players, and not just the subset of one forum or another, what would be an acceptable conversion rate, and how could WotC have met that, since plainly in your opinion 4e has failed to do so?

 

[M.L. Martin]

Right. There's 4E, and there's 3E.

Everything else: Radar blips.

Perhaps dearly loved and cuddled blips, but blips nonetheless.

Depends on your measurement.

Purchasing material: Slim to nonexistent.

Participating in message boards: Limited.

Actually playing: Probably a lot larger than we think.

I would be willing to wager that any edition of D&D has a user base competitive with, if not surpassing, Pathfinder or the other variants.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm probably not a good example of the average ENworlder, but I totally failed to see the relevance, or the humour in your tale. I thought this was a thread about D&D, and I keep finding all these random posts about Star Trek... I just don't get it. I nearly complained (in thread) last time there was a series of posts about it, but chose to let the matter drop. This time I couldn't stop myself.

(solemnly)

This is a poll about D&D, yes.
But would you prefer another endless thread, of hundreds of posts, about whether 4E is relevant versus 3E, or D&D versus Pathfinder, or ENWorld versus other messageboards, or Old Hands versus New People? We already have those threads aplenty, and certainly enough posts about them in this thread.

The spirit that kindled D&D is the spirit that kindled Star Fleet Battles and ECM. They both arise from the same spring. The enthusiasm and hot blooded passion enabled them both.

Now, that enthusiasm is gone. Star Fleet Battles is gone. Dragon Magazine is gone. Dungeon Magazine is gone.
And there is a VERY real chance that Dungeons and Dragons is going to be gone. That Hasbro is going to lock it away, and keep the copyrights. And that, in these grim times, all the successor games will collapse (Pathfinder included.) And then there will be no more Hobby.

I could spend my extra posts discussing this. It would most certainly be On Topic, since it relates directly to this poll.
But, is that the kind of thing we really *want* to talk about? Or isn't it self-evident, isn't that something we all already know? Isn't something we know, and wish we didn't know about?

You find offense at a few posts about Star Fleet Battles? (Not Star Trek ... the two are almost totally unrelated, except the names.)
You find offense at a few light hearted posts, when there is a real threat of our Hobby collapsing, everyone knows it, and I choose not to talk about it because everyone knows it, has heard it over and over, has seen it happen with Dragon and Dungeon, and for heaven's sake haven't they had enough of it?

Very well. I'll go along with your line of thinking. I'll discuss only the On Topic material. I won't lighten things with my offensive humor. I won't try to lighten a dark situation.
I'll talk about the horror stories I've heard. I'll talk about the collapse of gaming stores. The collapse of settings. The collapse of magazines. The anger and the hatred running amok. The imminent end of D&D, if things continue to go as they are going.

But hey, at least I won't be talking about that offensive ECM out of the merry (and now pretty much dead) game of Star Fleet Battles, will I?

 

[Scribble]

Now, that enthusiasm is gone. Star Fleet Battles is gone. Dragon Magazine is gone. Dungeon Magazine is gone.

Nah I got a subscription to both. They come with my subscription to DDI.

And there is a VERY real chance that Dungeons and Dragons is going to be gone. That Hasbro is going to lock it away, and keep the copyrights. And that, in these grim times, all the successor games will collapse (Pathfinder included.) And then there will be no more Hobby.

I think you're being a little alarmist here... I don't think there's a VERY real chance of D&D being gone. I'm jnot sure there's even a real chance.