things i like/dislike about PHB2 - a sort of review

[Wolfwood2]

I think celestial bloodline is more interesting than what was made.

There are ways to make a celestial bloodline interesting. I've played in a homebrew setting where aasimar made up the 'noble class' of a kingdom ruled by descendents of divinity. The Kalashtar of Eberron were basically repackaged aasimar (though with different stats and smelling strongly of deva). I mean, sure it's doable, but 3E didn't give you much to work with "out of the box" as it were.

Contrariwise it's pretty easy for even the most unimaginative player to come up with an interesting hook for the endlessly reincarnating deva. Hooks from past lives practically write themselves.

I don't know how you could find the former "more interesting" in any kind of objective way. It's a Far Realms point of view (completely alien) from where I'm sitting.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I get really annoyed whenever we get "Race X makes terrible Class Y" posts. Because it's just not true, and that way of thinking is crap.

Yes, if you are a min/maxer you cannot have a 20 in your primary ability score at Level 1. You can only have an 18. Which means that the difference between a race whose ability bonuses match up the prime requisties for a class versus a race whose don't... is a +1 to hit and damage. That's all. And pardon me for saying so... but a +1 difference does not turn a race from "ROXXOR!" to "Frakking Sux!!!". That's baloney.

If you want to say "Race X makes a less powerful Class Y"... then yeah, I'll go along with that... assuming you do indeed wish to start with a 20. But at no point does "Less Powerful" = "Terrible". And that kind of hyperbole that gets spouted around here gets really old, really fast.

And what's sad is that if you are a DM who really HATES, HATES, HATES that a certain race is less optimal than another in a certain class... all you have to do is say during character creation "Max starting ability score is 18, regardless of class." And then, everyone prime requisite is equal. That's it. Done. Every race/class combo can start with a +4 mod, and you're ready to go.

So please... try to use a little restraint when describing these new books and look at everything even-handedly, eh?

 

[Mengu]

I have some similar, and some conflicting opinions with the reviewers and commenters here so far. Nothing new there I guess. For what it's worth:

Races:
I like Half-orc and Deva. I think both are great additions. The rest I could have lived without. Shifters are the ones that especially rub me the wrong way, I'm not sure why. Maybe it's just the name of the race I have an aversion to.

Classes:
I think they did a really good job with giving unique feels to the Shaman and Druid. I don't think there are any "uninteresting" or "suboptimal" choices from the class roster. They are all workable in some way. Avengers I haven't quite figured out yet, and probably won't be able to till I see one in action, but the rest are all solid at doing their class roles.

Do they turn any PHB classes to obsolete? I don't think so. The Wizard and Warlock were the step children out of the gate, so I don't think it's fair to include these two classes in the comparison. And MP added a lot of umph to 2 of the 4 martial classes, and provided the other 2 with some funky options. I'm sure Arcane and other Power books will do the same for their respective power sources.

I see a little bit of repetitiveness in some at-wills as new classes are born. If you hit, you gain X temporary hit points, seems to be becoming common place. Nothing wrong with these powers, really, just an observation.

Class features for each class I think do a good job of differentiating the overall feel between classes. A bard who constantly slides people around the battlefield and tosses around false marks feels very different from the shaman with a spirit companion protecting his allies.

Feats:
Not much in here for the PHB1 characters. But there are already hundreds of feats floating around for them, so naturally this book focuses on the PHB2 options. I don't see any eye sores here, with the exception of Expertise feats (why couldn't they be errata again?)

Anything else?
No, there really isn't anything else in this book. The items again typically pertain to what's relevant to this book, and that's it with few exceptions.

If you have DDI subscription, there is absolutely no need for this book, unless you're like me, and want to curl up on the couch and flip through its pages for a few hours, but a borrowed book can easily serve the same purpose.

----
Going back to the Wizard and Warlock debate, I don't think they are as bad as some people make them sound like. Yes some of the other classes have mechanically better options, but Wizards and Warlocks are far from incompetant. You just have to see the right build in action with the right group.

 

[Plane Sailing]

(And I'm actually really psyched about some of the paragon paths, more so than I was about most of the PPs in the PHB1.)

I forgot to mention those - most of the racial paragon paths are excellent. I'd so like to play a Deva with the deva paragon path!

Accordingly I'll up my rating to C+

And I'm surprised at the people objecting to "deva." You folks do know that it's a real word, with real, legitimate pronunciation, as opposed to "aasimar" which was just made up, yes?

Since I'm not objecting to it, I know this comment is made to me - but I knew it was a real world and I've always pronounced it deeva, since it never occurred to me it might be pronounced differently. Even hearing that there is a 'proper' pronunciation doesn't worry me since I know that english speakers from Newcastle, Birmingham and the West Country would make it sound very different anyway!

Cheers

 

[avin]

I don't know how you could find the former "more interesting" in any kind of objective way. It's a Far Realms point of view (completely alien) from where I'm sitting.

Enjoying something is never objective.

As I said before I will be using Deva and Aasimar as two different races. "Double win", I said.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I forgot to mention those - most of the racial paragon paths are excellent. I'd so like to play a Deva with the deva paragon path!

Yup, I love those. I really want to play a dwarven warden with the Hammer of Moradin PP, whose entire combat shtick is that he just. Won't. Ever. Fall. Down.

 

[grickherder]

So yeah... after looking pretty closely, I am just simply not seeing how Sorcerers are absolutely better... I think Warlocks more than hold their own one-on-one, and any shortfalls are fairly well-compensated by their pact boons...

And the ability to get concealment by moving. Against most attacks that's like +2 to all the defenses. Sorcerer's have a big weakness in the form of bad AC without spending a lot of feats on it. Add in that the dragon magic is full of close blast abilities and suddenly you're in the thick of things with relatively low AC.

 

[evilbob]

There are a lot of good responses - clearly I hit more of a nerve with this post as opposed to the Delve. More thoughts:


DEFCON 1 and others: Sorry, but I will agree to disagree. It's not that I think the ONLY way to play is to start with a minimum 18 in your primary stat: I know you can build characters that are viable without it. It's just that I've seen people play without that, and frankly, it's just less fun. It's not even an obvious thing, it just creeps up over time, over many sessions... Eventually, they just end up not liking the character as much. And I honestly believe it's because they miss just that much more. So yes, despite what WotC said, starting with an 18 in your primary attack stat is what I advise all my players to do, and would do the same for anyone else. If you don't like that, yes, you can houserule it - but why do we have to?


Piratecat: HA! Maybe barbarians and sorcerers are stealth errata too? THERE! I SAID IT!


Obryn: Sorry, I still disagree with your outcome: I think warlock dual-stat reliance plus the stability of constant double-stat damage for the Sorc wins. Their multi-target spells kill warlock options, too, and that does make a big difference. Sorry for getting this song in people's heads, but: anything locks can do, sorcs can do better.


Jack99: You clearly didn't like my take I see. That's fair enough, but please don't tell me I'm not playing 4e. I'd respond to your points but I don't think I'd communicate it clearly enough since I obviously didn't get it right the first time around.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well, I will say I had a very different experience then the OP. I quite enjoyed what we got in PHB2 especially Primal, I adore Primal. Which is funny since wasn't much of a fan of nature classes before, but with the additional spirit fluff that means you can cut-out lots of the nature stuff makes it much higher on my list.

I won't go into much else, since well just me raving about this or that. But one aspect I will talk about is the Deva. One particular aspect I like about them that I don't believe has been brought up is they are not-D&D fantasy nor European-based. But they aren't like other attempts where they essentially bash over your head that this works best with a setting devoted to that culture, the Deva while Hindu based could work in many settings. This I think is a very nice change, brings more unique properties to the game while not forcing them into their own little niche culture.

 

[Obryn]

There are a lot of good responses - clearly I hit more of a nerve with this post as opposed to the Delve.

Naah, not a nerve, but this is the first fairly thorough thread about PHB2, and I didn't want to start my own.

Obryn: Sorry, I still disagree with your outcome: I think warlock dual-stat reliance plus the stability of constant double-stat damage for the Sorc wins. Their multi-target spells kill warlock options, too, and that does make a big difference. Sorry for getting this song in people's heads, but: anything locks can do, sorcs can do better.

Again, like I said, I would like to see a sorcerer in play before I call this one. Quite simply, it seems to me that Warlocks have a leg up on control and special effects, while Sorcerers have a leg up on area effects and damage. Bursts and blasts, as any Wizard player will tell you, are a mixed blessing.

I do agree as far as character design goes that a Warlock suffers for its two-stat reliance. Today's Dragon article talked about A-type vs. V-type classes, and sadly, Warlock is firmly in the V camp. You can somewhat counteract it by concentrating solely on Con or Cha, and making Int your secondary stat. You are left with just half a class that way, but IMHO it's better than trying to do everything.

-O