Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Ycore Rixle]

Random thoughts on sexism in D&D:

The first thought that comes to mind is that I've advised and played in a gaming club at an all-girls school where I taught. There were no significant differences between those games and any of the zillion other coed and all-guys games I've played in.

The second thought that comes to mind is that men and women are different. And they're not different solely because of socialization. The world is sexist. Nancy Hopkins notwithstanding, studies from Simon Baron-Cohen to Michael Gurian show that boys and girls and men and women tend to have different brains in sex-correlated ways. That says nothing about any individual, of course.

My third thought is that D&D needs a good healthy dose of Camille Paglia- and Wendy McElroy-style feminism. Pro-beauty, pro-cheesecake, pro-woman feminism. We have to keep in mind - I applaud you, Shilsen, for avoiding humanities-speak despite being immersed in it! - that there are many forms of feminism.

I also think that one of the great glories of D&D is that it can play differently with each group. Folks should play how they want.

The point about DDM is a good one. There really are far too few female giants. And other races for that matter. Of course, there are far too few noncombat villager/noble/miner/etc. minis for my taste, too.

Another random thought is that in the original post, Shilsen, you seem to be implying that many in the USA are more "sexist" - that is, believe that women are inherently inferior to men - than many in most other countries. This is wildly incorrect. I may just be reading your post wrong, though.

The harlot table is great fun. It's a great example of sex in D&D that is humorous, fun, and in no way harming, demeaning, or belittling one sex or another.

If we take sexism to mean the idea that one sex is inherently superior to the other, then I think D&D is explicitly anti-sexist. Nor is it implicitly sexist.

If, on the other hand, we more generously, and I think more wisely, take sexism to mean making reasonable judgments regarding sex and sexual differences, then D&D could use a little more of it. I like romance and sexual tension, and there has been precious little of it in official D&D products over the lifetime of our hobby. On the other hand, RPGs may not be a good medium for it, as Blue Rose et al. did not exactly take over the industry lead.

 

[Mark]

I think the veneer and presentation of D&D has a lot to do with why women don't do so.

Yup. I think the best way to counter that is to be a vocal, recognizable portion of the market (that publishers would be loath to offend).

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I disagree. I don't think roleplaying games in their current form (and I refer to content not presentation) can ever appeal to women anything like as strongly as they appeal to men. They are way too combat heavy, way too system heavy and way too number heavy.

I'm not saying girls can't do math, or that female geeks don't exist or that women can't be interested in some number-oriented activity like Bingo or Bridge. But in ttrpgs numbers fly around like clouds of bats, many of them serving no purpose whatsoever. You have to f---ing love them to play in a way few women do.

Rpgs that do appeal to women more are mmorpgs and Murder Mystery.

Wow, just wow.

I see Monty python and Jedi theories thrown around as much as numbers. I have never seen a group of women be less math natured then men. I guess you just see something that I don’t. But to be honest, I am a little insulted. I have been playing 4e for a little over 2 months, before that 3rd for 8, maybe 9 years, and 2 nd before that. I have never seen ‘numbers’ turn anyone off to the game. I have seen guys re add there numbers 10 times in one game, no matter how many times I say “YOU HAVE A +22…roll then ADD 22” when they are saying “+1 base, +2 magic, +4 buff spell, + 4 Power attack, wait times 2 for two handed that is +8, wait did I add my +2 magic in”

 

[Doug McCrae]

On the issue of sexist art:

For men, appearance is a much more important factor in sexual attraction than it is for women. Sure women like to look at George Clooney but the actor's appeal with the opposite sex is, imo, based on a wider variety of traits than looks alone.

So visual art is inherently sexist. By choosing to create a picture one has chosen a medium which appeals more to male sexual desire than to female.

 

[Proserpine]

I disagree. I don't think roleplaying games in their current form (and I refer to content not presentation) can ever appeal to women anything like as strongly as they appeal to men. They are way too combat heavy, way too system heavy and way too number heavy.

I'm not saying girls can't do math, or that female geeks don't exist or that women can't be interested in some number-oriented activity like Bingo or Bridge. But in ttrpgs numbers fly around like clouds of bats, many of them serving no purpose whatsoever. You have to f---ing love them to play in a way few women do.

Rpgs that do appeal to women more are mmorpgs and Murder Mystery.

I'm damn girly and hate math, but my favorite part of D&D is the combat. Women like blowing things up too. Really. If you're dealing with female geeks, my only generalization is that they'd be even more likely than the average woman to like adventuring and killing stuff. World of Warcraft has a very large number of female participants, and there are no mysteries, romances, or viable creativity being fostered by that game.

Some rpgs may revolve mostly around numbers, but a lot of the "oh women just don't like it" arguments seem to largely ignore the creative aspect of the game. And you mention MMORPGS - I have a lot more experience with them than I do ttrpgs. The aforementioned WoW, for instance, is all about min/maxing if you do any raiding or PvP. That involves... ah, numbers.

In short, there's nothing inherently "manly" about D&D.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

On the issue of sexist art:

For men, appearance is a much more important factor in sexual attraction than it is for women. Sure women like to look at George Clooney but the actor's appeal with the opposite sex is, imo, based on a wider variety of traits than looks alone.

So visual art is inherently sexist. By choosing to create a picture one has a chosen a medium which appeals more to male sexual desire than it does to women.

Yea, spoken like a guy that buys all the BS ‘proper’ ladies, and gentlemen tell you. Do you really think when I look at Fabio, or Triple H, or Sean Connery (old enough to be my grand father and I would still…err never mind) I am thinking what a great soul mate, and the conversations we might have???

In the year 2009 we need to stop this. PEOPLE are different, some guys like to be sweet, some women go to strip clubs (You know to talk to those chip and dale dancers).

 

[NewJeffCT]

A data point:

I'm currently running an Eberron campaign in which the heroes are in Xen'drik fighting a lot of giants. I noticed something odd when I was going through my D&D Miniatures collection to evaluate how many giants and of how many types I have.

DDM has produced six or seven ogres, five or so trolls, three ettins, three hill giants, two stone giants, two frost giants, three fire giants, a cloud giant, a storm giant, an eldritch giant, and a death giant. (There may be some I'm forgetting, but that's pretty close.)

Of 30 or more giants produced in the DDM line, three are female: two of the ogres and the storm giant.

I found that to be extremely annoying.

And, in a similar veing I just had a new player join my gaming group - she is an experienced gamer and the girlfriend of one of my other players. Her character is going to be a goliath barbarian... so, I figured, I would search eBay and buy a female goliath figure for her. No luck, there is no female goliath figure, though there are at least 3 male goliath figures.

So, I was stuck looking for a tall female human mini that didn't look too scrawny, as most female minis that are tall enough (like the Confrontation Fiannas) are built like supermodels and not a strong woman with muscle. I wasn't even looking for a female bodybuilder - just something that was tall and wasn't too skinny. I searched every single mini designer listed on CMON, but none suitable for being a 7 1/2 foot tall barbarian woman. Heck, I even looked at some 54mm scale minis.

 

[Dice4Hire]

If, on the other hand, we more generously, and I think more wisely, take sexism to mean making reasonable judgments regarding sex and sexual differences, then D&D could use a little more of it. I like romance and sexual tension, and there has been precious little of it in official D&D products over the lifetime of our hobby. On the other hand, RPGs may not be a good medium for it, as Blue Rose et al. did not exactly take over the industry lead.

I. for one, am glad that D&D ahs steered clear of sex and relationships from the get go. Part of that is the escapist part of D&D for me, that stuff is messy enough in real life I don't want it in my game. My games have some realism, but not that much, not by a loing shot, butthen again my games fall on the roll wide of roleplaying.

As a second thought, one reason I do not want this kind of sex rule framework is it seems most of the horro storeis female gamers tell about (including one in this very thread) focus on those kind of 'rules' that groups make up on their own.

Plus can you imagine what a bad rep D&'D would get if it had an 'unintended pregnancy table' or the like? I shudder to think.

 

[Leatherhead]

I disagree. I don't think roleplaying games in their current form (and I refer to content not presentation) can ever appeal to women anything like as strongly as they appeal to men. They are way too combat heavy, way too system heavy and way too number heavy.

I'm not saying girls can't do math, or that female geeks don't exist or that women can't be interested in some number-oriented activity like Bingo or Bridge. But in ttrpgs numbers fly around like clouds of bats, many of them serving no purpose whatsoever. You have to f---ing love them to play in a way few women do.

Rpgs that do appeal to women more are mmorpgs and Murder Mystery.

You seem to be vastly underestimating the amount of "mathiness" and combat in MMORPGS.

 

[roguerouge]

On the issue of sexist art:

For men, appearance is a much more important factor in sexual attraction than it is for women. Sure women like to look at George Clooney but the actor's appeal with the opposite sex is, imo, based on a wider variety of traits than looks alone.

Thank god. Unfortunately, I've never known that to be true.

So visual art is inherently sexist. By choosing to create a picture one has a chosen a medium which appeals more to male sexual desire than to female.

And thus pottery, innuendo and perfumes are inherently anti-male? Not sure I follow you here either.