You're misunderstanding my point. A Charisma-based Paladin can take 0 powers that key off of Strength, and still wind up with a mix of Weapon and Implement powers (in fact, I'm not sure he can avoid such a mix, since the at-will attacks are Weapon and the majority of his daily powers are Implement). The cost of needing to maintain two attack items is at least partially balanced by the ability to have more item powers. There is no such balance with the Expertise feats; such a Paladin simply has to choose between having half of his attacks be less effective, or spending an extra feat.[/quote}]
I understand your point. I am just saying that "baby sitting" an Implement and a Weapon as a Paladin, Cleric or the like isn't made any worse by Expertise. I wold argue that it is indeed made less obnoxious. I now have the option to worry less about the Item I'm using.
But if you're arguing that the hit chances are balanced without Expertise then I don't see how Expertise makes the hit chances worse. If you think that feats are "extras" added to your character then Expertise allows you to focus your character more.
It seems to me that a hybrid class has too choose between half of his attacks with or without Expertise. This is one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of playing hybrid classes myself. But it's one of the only ways I can rationalize balancing the hybrid classes.
They are just as effective as they were before, yes. Other attacks are now better than they were before, because of Expertise. That makes them relatively worse, because other attacks have been strengthened while they have not.
The same argument can be made for any feat bonuses what-so-ever.
So rather then remove feats that make one attack better then another. Add a feat that can bring those other attacks up to par. The purpose of feats, in my opinion, is to further differentiate your character from characters of your Race/Class combo. It can also help develop a niche for such Race/Class combos.
It is the very nature of feats that your character has to choose whether he's going to better at this, that or the other.
Allow Weapon Expertise: Natural Attacks. Now your claws, unarmed, breath weapon or whatever also get a bump.
Again I don't see how giving a Paladin a free Weapon/Implement Expertise is in fact penalizing him. It is my opinion that the hit chance in a void is too low. Looking at my relatively min-maxed spread sheet the chance to hit is rather low. And that's looking at your better case scenario. If you're then looking at a less effective secondary attack (implement or stat wise) then those chances are even less.
I'm not arguing the balance of hybrid classes. I'd be using completely different evidence to argue that on a class by class basis. I also will totally admit that I am not completely familiar with classes that my players or I have yet to play or build.
I am wanting to focus my discussion on the negative trend in the success rate of ALL attacks as a PC levels up. That's weapon, natural, implement and otherwise based attacks all receive a cumulative penalty as you increase in power.
I understand that what I consider a relative "fix" for this - Weapon/Implement Expertise - to be mostly effective does not benefit all powers and all attacks. So if you have a suggestion that would do so please put it forth. But banning expertise because it doesn't effect all attacks that a character makes while at the same time arguing that it is overpowered is talking out of two sides of your face (and thus an ineffective argument).
So for those of you with UIL (or other) backgrounds. I am taking the affirmative - Weapon/Implement Expertise is a positive addition to the game.
As such your arguments that it makes some attacks better then others agrees with my statement. Just as Action Surge makes Action Point attacks better and Combat Reflexes makes opportunity attacks better then your normal basic attacks. Does this mean that they should be banned as well?
Because not all attacks that a Paladin makes are going to be basic attacks. And in fact if your Cha Paly makes basic attacks they're going to be very ineffective, unless he takes Melee Training to change his basic attack ability to Charisma. So your paladin example would have to take two feats to make Combat Reflexes fully effective as well. So should I ban Melee Training cause it's not a useful to the Paladin as it is to a Rogue or Ranger?
In addition, your hybrid example is better used as evidence that Weapon/Implement Expertise is not overpowered.
