Expertise justification?

[Victim]

You're pretty funny.

I talk about Epic being grindy and none of the text you quoted discuss the subject. Most of the links you quoted don't even discuss Epic. And these are what you are using to "disprove" that Epic is grindy.

Want to try again?

He's saying that people use auto-damage powers like Rain of Steel or miss damage to mitigate the loss of damage from missed attacks.

But even Stormwardens do more damage when they hit.

 

[Lauberfen]

Yup. A stack of opinion from another board is hardly relevant, none of the quotes from the wizards board are even discussing experience of play, at any level. Just reiterating that some people don't consider there to be a maths gap, and are happy with the feats. No reference to play.

Perhaps a poll would best sort this out- those that have actually played at epic, and whether they've experienced grind or not.


Quite probably the numbers are a bit small for it to be relevant.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You're pretty funny.

I new when I saw this this thread was going down hill...

I talk about Epic being grindy and none of the text you quoted discuss the subject. Most of the links you quoted don't even discuss Epic. And these are what you are using to "disprove" that Epic is grindy.

it is what I use to PROVER beyond a dubt that you do not speak for everyone...so get off the high horse...not everyone is on yourside...Epic CAN be grindy, but not EVERYONE agrees...

Want to try again?

no your turn...prove your statement...prove

Every single Epic player (so far) on the boards has stated that Epic play is grindy.

Yup. A stack of opinion from another board is hardly relevant,

except it is relevant to him not speaking for everyone...

none of the quotes from the wizards board are even discussing experience of play, at any level.

really so none that said there was no problem have played or quited play esxeriance...maybe you should reread them...

Just reiterating that some people don't consider there to be a maths gap, and are happy with the feats.

you mean the real point of this thread...the feats

Perhaps a poll would best sort this out- those that have actually played at epic, and whether they've experienced grind or not.

so start one...

 

[KarinsDad]

no your turn...prove your statement...prove

Nope. Don't have to. I tried Epic and it was grindy. Saw a lot of posts here stating it was grindy.

Don't need to prove that to anyone, I just consider it fact. The math supports this POV as well.

You can think otherwise, I was just illustrating that your "100% disproves this" statement was not backed up by any real anecdotal evidence from you so far.

 

[Elric]

Just curious; what do the numbers look like if you do a +1 at 5th, +2 at 15th, and +3 at 25th?

I must be using slightly different assumptions about what magic item enhancement bonuses PCs will have at what levels compared to the original poster, but I get averages by tier of (assuming level 1 starts with a 60% chance to hit):

+1 at 5/15/25:
Heroic: 60%
Paragon: 57%
Epic: 55%

+1 at Paragon/Epic:
Heroic: 57%
Paragon: 54%
Epic: 52%

Default game rules, no expertise feats:
Heroic: 57%
Paragon: 49%
Epic: 42%

Now I just have to sort through the NADs feats and issues.

If you are giving out an eventual +2 to hit, that means to-hit scales by 2 worse than monster defenses over 29 levels. At the moment, the average FRW defenses scales by 5 worse than monster to-hit over 29 levels (see the math/assumptions, here). So if you give a +1 to each FRW at level 5/15/25, the average FRW defenses will scale by -2, the same as to-hit with your change and the same as AC scales in the default system.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But you would only be looking at the attack bonuses. That might be sufficient, it might not be. Epic Tier also sees a bump in damage (basic attacks/at-wills) and a bump by he Epic Destinies that is unaccounted for (I am not talking just about the ability bonus). I doubt anyone has done the math for that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Nope. Don't have to.

you do if you want people to convince people you are speaking for 'Everyone'

I tried Epic and it was grindy. Saw a lot of posts here stating it was grindy.

I not only tried epic, but played it multi times, and I found it not to be grindy...and I see people here and on other boards feel the same...

Don't need to prove that to anyone, I just consider it fact. The math supports this POV as well.

things that you consider facts are your opionons...facts are things that ARE facts witch you refuse to show..

You can think otherwise, I was just illustrating that your "100% disproves this" statement was not backed up by any real anecdotal evidence from you so far.

wow that is so ironic...since all you have done is said "I am right you are wrong " well I have gone out of my way to show at every level evadance, and I have reseaarched in the rules, in the math, and on the boards, well all you say is

Nope. Don't have to.

so I guess you really just like to fight and have no point at all...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

since the crux of the argument is weather or not you need to have these or not to be able to play at effective levels, and I have been told time and again how grindy and unplayble this game gets, but noone has answerf this...

lets set a bar shall we...how hard is too hard..

now remember this is soppost to be the HARDEST fight the PCs could every expect to face... please remember this is well above the avrage fight (Lev - lev+1) and is not an every day accorance, in fact if the h1-e3 mods are to be belived as the standard then about once ever 3 or 4 levels the PCs MIGHT face this big of a threat...

should the threat of party memebers dieing be there?
should it be possible to end in a TPK if things go wrong (tactics or luck)?
Should the PCs be expected to be able to win every fight without threat of death or major drawback???
When Pcs can be raised, or even self res does that change the answer to teh above??

If a fight is very hard, but is able to be won is it a fair fight?
If a fight can not be won no matter how wellt eh PCs do is it a fair fight?


[sblock=my take on this] should the threat of party memebers dieing be there? Yes, with out a doubt infact if in an slightly above avrage encounter there should always be some small threat of PC death...only in encounters of levl -1 or lower should it be no real chance of death outside of a fluke...
should it be possible to end in a TPK if things go wrong (tactics or luck)? Yes if the PCs mess up the BEG fight I see no problem with a TPK...but I also hope that iss toped by retrates when it is going that bad...
Should the PCs be expected to be able to win every fight without threat of death or major drawback??? NO..in fact I can not say this strongly enough...PCs should be in for the fight of there lives... When Pcs can be raised, or even self res does that change the answer to teh above?? Yes...at epic, especialy once the self res stuff comes in there should be PC deaths (well near misses becuse of the self res) at least once per level...what is the pont of having cool toys you never use...

If a fight is very hard, but is able to be won is it a fair fight? yes...
If a fight can not be won no matter how wellt eh PCs do is it a fair fight?
no, if you all only hit on 20's and even then some of you don't crit, and he only misses on 3+ with all attacks...that is not a fair fight...lucky for me you need Lev+7 or more to see such things
[/sblock]

and I am still waiting for the un playble encounter...

 

[Nail]

since the crux of the argument is weather or not you need to have these or not to be able to play at effective levels.

I'm having a bit of trouble following your english. Let me paraphrase you, and you let me know if I've gotten it right:

You claim that the central debate in this thread is "Are the expertise feats required at paragon and epic tiers of play?"

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Ryujin]

I don't know about that. I think that a valid arguement would be that they are seen as needed by Wizards, as demonstrated by how ubiquitous these feats are. There are now three of them, that will stack with any conditional bonuses. That implies that they envision every character and class taking them.