Monster bonus damage on multiple attacks?
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
ah, also just looked up halfling sligner, when they use that particular 3-attack ability, they have a -2 to attack. So if they also happen to have combat advantage, the penalty counters the CA bonus, so their attack bonus is still +4 to three attacks in this mix of situations of both abilities overlapping. So we're still talking fairly low accuracy.
Basically, you're talking about several conditions that need to be in place for this to work as "deadly"
a) their 3-attack power is recharged/available
b) they hit (+2 to attack, or +4 with CA)
c) they have combat advantage (to give the extra +1d6 damage) (a very low chance as the slinger needs it's own allies to use status effects, or the PCs to do something that makes themselves vulnerable)
d) They're not denied their action (with conditions from the PCs such as death, stunned, etc. ) - though there is a low chance of 1st level PCs doing any such deniying condition other than death ...
e) if a foe is next to them, they have to be willing to deal with the opportunity attack.
f) they have a clear shot to the PC (cover, concealment, terrain features, PC's allies, etc could all make the "to hit" roll much lower)
some of those things are likley while others have a low chance. it just seems like a lot of factors have to go in to allowing 3 hits with the extra damage.
but, again, it's been a while since 1st level so i could just be remembering the actual lethalty wrong.
Basically, you're talking about several conditions that need to be in place for this to work as "deadly"
a) their 3-attack power is recharged/available
b) they hit (+2 to attack, or +4 with CA)
c) they have combat advantage (to give the extra +1d6 damage) (a very low chance as the slinger needs it's own allies to use status effects, or the PCs to do something that makes themselves vulnerable)
d) They're not denied their action (with conditions from the PCs such as death, stunned, etc. ) - though there is a low chance of 1st level PCs doing any such deniying condition other than death ...
e) if a foe is next to them, they have to be willing to deal with the opportunity attack.
f) they have a clear shot to the PC (cover, concealment, terrain features, PC's allies, etc could all make the "to hit" roll much lower)
some of those things are likley while others have a low chance. it just seems like a lot of factors have to go in to allowing 3 hits with the extra damage.
but, again, it's been a while since 1st level so i could just be remembering the actual lethalty wrong.
keterys
First Post
It really doesn't have to hit with all 3 to do too much damage. If it did happen to do so, it would just be completely broken 
In my spreadsheet I assumed it would get off only 1 sneak attack of the three attacks (which it can do from stealth), and factored in its attack penalty, etc, and it still was 26 damage to the kobold slinger's 11.25. Enough to drop most characters at that level. More than double the average damage for all level 1 monsters, approached only by the Fire Beetle and the Stormclaw Scorpion (who are still behind it)
Yes, it's possible to counteract them as PCs. Yes, they're far less effective if the DM doesn't play them smartly. That doesn't really change them from being brutal in the hands of a tactical DM or against an unprepared party.
And, I mean, we know how truly prepared level 1 parties are.
In my spreadsheet I assumed it would get off only 1 sneak attack of the three attacks (which it can do from stealth), and factored in its attack penalty, etc, and it still was 26 damage to the kobold slinger's 11.25. Enough to drop most characters at that level. More than double the average damage for all level 1 monsters, approached only by the Fire Beetle and the Stormclaw Scorpion (who are still behind it)
Yes, it's possible to counteract them as PCs. Yes, they're far less effective if the DM doesn't play them smartly. That doesn't really change them from being brutal in the hands of a tactical DM or against an unprepared party.
And, I mean, we know how truly prepared level 1 parties are.
Having fought the halfings a long time ago, I definitely think they are overpowered.
Remember, people currently are doing a comparison based on 1 halfling. This is 4e, 5 monsters. Try 2 halflings focus firing on one player. They can die very fast.
I have seen a similar problem with the foulspawn skirmisher. He has a dance of death ability that allows him 4 attacks, and he gets sneak attack on every one if he has CA (and combined with a controller its dirt simple to do). That damage can obliterate a single player.
While its not written, I do wonder if monster sneak attack damage should have the same restriction PCs do.
Remember, people currently are doing a comparison based on 1 halfling. This is 4e, 5 monsters. Try 2 halflings focus firing on one player. They can die very fast.
I have seen a similar problem with the foulspawn skirmisher. He has a dance of death ability that allows him 4 attacks, and he gets sneak attack on every one if he has CA (and combined with a controller its dirt simple to do). That damage can obliterate a single player.
While its not written, I do wonder if monster sneak attack damage should have the same restriction PCs do.
Flipguarder
First Post
The idea that monsters get bonus damage on each attack is ok for most monsters, but not level 1 monsters.
DracoSuave
First Post
For Artillery it's terrible unless they're targetting NAD. You should be looking at +8 or +9 vs AC at level -1-.
-All- artillery monsters HIT YOU HARD. That is why you have Strikers. 'But they're helping with the soldier!' Quiet.
Artillery are threats, you have mobile damage dealers, go send them out there.
Regardless, you shouldn't normally be fighting 5 slingers either, and if you are then you have no excuses when it comes to closing in on them.
Artillery hits hard, or hits accurately. And yes they are deadly at level 1, if they can hit. Fortunately, their attack bonus sucks.
DracoSuave
First Post
BS. Level 1 monsters should be threats to level 1 characters. This need to make minions more like regular monsters and regular monsters more like minions is backwards.
Players should be introduced to the concept of 'Artillery hits your face for massive pain' at level 1. Then they learn they have to deal with them from the get go. Leaders are made busy, but the thing is, players will survive this. They usually do.
And if a player dies?
Who cares, he's level 1.
No level 1 artillery in MM1 or MM2 has a +9 vs AC (or a +7 vs FRW, with the usual 2 lower for targeting FRW instead of AC). The DMG guideline for artillery (pg 184) is level +7 attacks vs. AC.
Is there any actual data behind this +9 number?
Flipguarder
First Post
"Level 1 monsters should be decent but not overpowering threats to level 1 characters. Rangers at level 1 should be reasonably equal in power to other strikers." This is all well and good in magical fairy land where everything is right with the world but in the real world 4e is just not all that well balanced at level 1
Btw 'Artillery hits your face for massive pain' and 'artillery gets lucky so you die in one hit', are completely different concepts.
Furthermore I never understood the concept that a level 1 character dying is less sad then a level 11 character dying.
All I'm saying is that the max damage for a level 1 monster should not be 48. Thats ridiculous.
Crits should never bring a target from unhit to unconscious. level 1 is where this is most possible
the Jester
Legend
I don't agree with this. I miss the days of the monster that was threatening enough to drop a pc in one round if their luck is hot.
Then again, I am traditionally a very high-lethality dm, and in 4e- which I've been running pretty much since day 1- I've only had 2 pc deaths, one of which was due to the pc getting caught as an arsonist by the watch and then hanged.
(Though, to this day, they have never seen a body...)
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