Classes by primary stat

As an example, I wouldn't probably bitch about the multiclass rules too much if the original rules had been the current hybrid rules combined with allowing the Hybrid Talent feat to be taken multiple times.

I'm a big fan of the hybrid rules as a way to get a bit of the old school multiclass flavor. But allowing the hybrid talent feat multiple times is too good imo. I've run enough builds with the thought of using that feats, and there are plenty of combos you can make that are strictly superior to straight classes.

I don't have a problem with 4e multiclass feats...except the name. I agree its not multiclassing, its class dabbling. Hybrid feels closest to me, sure the class abilities you get are limited but at least they are always useful. That's better than the result of some 3e multiclasses where you woudl get abilities so watered down you might as well not have done it at all.
 

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I'm a big fan of the hybrid rules as a way to get a bit of the old school multiclass flavor. But allowing the hybrid talent feat multiple times is too good imo. I've run enough builds with the thought of using that feats, and there are plenty of combos you can make that are strictly superior to straight classes.

Such as?
 

Part of the issue is that versatility in much less powerful in 4e than in 3e. In 3e, many monsters were completely immune to whole swaths of attacks, or might be terribly difficult to defeat by some means but easy by another. Using the right tool for the job was very important. Some non-combat encounters were dominated by magical effects that you either had or didn't have (say, water breathing or what-not). Because raw power often didn't matter nearly as much as just having the right tool, sacrificing focus was often a good choice. That, combined with prestige classes and multiclassing rules that commonly made it possible to retain the core of your class (at most giving up some small amount of power) while gaining new, different options, meant that good characters commonly were multiclassed or prestige-classed.

In 4e, a small to-hit bonus actually matters. Resistances and Vulnerabilities are rarely absolute; in fact, if you can deal just a bit more damage than your neighbor, even if you're attacking something that's resisted, you may well end up doing better. Raw power is very important, and flexibility (though still valuable) less so. Out of combat most classes get only few relevant features in the first place, and rituals (which can be expensive) are one of the few remaining options.

So when in 4e a hybrid rogue gives up sneak attack partially, this loss of power really matters. When a hybrid paladin loses much of his marks power, and need to use more actions to boot, this really matters. Having a high-attack stat matters, but for hybrids this is usually hard to achieve, since it's unlikely the stats actually line up perfectly. When a hybrid loses armor proficiencies, it matters.

For all these reasons, a hybrid loses out on the power scale. It's possible to make hybrids that work, but it's hard. The only characters that have a chance of competing will need to have just 2 relevant stats, or need to have just one attack stat and 2 secondary stats that don't need to be very high (i.e. neither may be the AC stat for a light armor character, for starters).

Many hybrid features limit their usability such that they can only be used partially, in conjunction with that classes powers. But that means that at any given moment, a hybrid character tends to benefit from far fewer abilities than a single-class character (since hybrids also tend to be missing various extra's).

Even losing just +1 to +2 attack and damage versus a single-classed character is going to be hard to compensate for a hybrid character, and those areas where features might synergize tend to be carefully compartmentalized by the rules. The only real win tends to be the greater power selection pool; and that's worth something, but I doubt that it's worth even +1 to attack and damage for most characters, and it's almost certainly not going to be worth all the various smaller supporting features you lose, the armor proficiencies, and the poorer stat distribution most hybrids will face.

So, if you can find a hybrid combo with a decent stat distribution, where the "extra" features aren't all that important (say a wizard) and where the armor proficiencies and weapon/implement usage isn't too problematic (i.e. where you're basically giving up very little compared to a single classed character) then you can make a fine hybrid - perhaps even an overpowered one if you manage to find some feature combo.

But it's unlikely - it's much more likely you'll end up with a much weaker character with fewer features that work only more situationally, with a broader selection of powers to choose from.

The problem is, most classes already have a very nice power selection, and the extra options tend to be pointless unless they're broken - so now we either have weak hybrids, or abusive overpowered hybrids, but not much in between.

I don't think it's a huge problem; it's not quite as bad as paragon multiclassing, but I do expect only very few hybrids to be made.
 

Looking at a few characters I'm actively playing, I have a fighter, warlord, barbarian, invoker, and artificer.

They're _all_ multiclassed.

The fighter's dip into religion has always been prominent in his play and I multi-ed at 1st level, and I have a base multiclass and a utility and an encounter power. Both utility and encounter powers make me stronger than if I didn't have them, or if I took another feat.

The warlord was multiclassed paladin from 1st level, because I wanted the ability to divine challenge. I do keep considering picking up another feat, but really just the ability to divine challenge once an encounter has gotten a DM acting like I was a paladin as well, so good enough for me.

The barbarian started at 4th level and has been part fighter since then. I've had Come And Get It since I was 7th level, took a fighter paragon path at 11th, often act as a secondary tank through dint of temporary hp and DR.

The deva invoker I always wanted a lantern archon pet to hang around with me, so I did that via multiclassing. It did also help me fill out my skill list of what I felt I required. I'll probably swap out for a utility power at some point, but I'm low enough level that hasn't come up.

The artificer just wanted a skill and I wasn't too concerned how he got it, so he MC-ed to get a skill and hey, that ability is badass, won't say no. I might, mind you, some day take a utility, but not because it's really that meaningful to the character.

It's just that it's very, very often the case that swapping one of your less desirable powers for a more desirable one from another class is worth a feat.
 

I like multiclassing as well. There are certainly negatives to doing it but I also tend to be a feat whore human or a half-elf as well.

Obviously STR based heroes make good candidates and of course there's the Sorcerer daggermaster (which is a good example of poor consistency thematically but actually works well in a game mechanics sense).

If you want flexibility you have to be a bard. Yes, it's a major restriction and I think it's well done - it's completely intended by the publishers to be a benefit of getting "stuck" with the skill monkey class.

I have a fun half-elf bardbarian/warlord. He's fun to play and the party certainly likes to have him around.
 

And I consider Multiclassing to be so lame because it was WotC's first attempt in a game system that was being rushed out the door. Well designed multiclassing is more complex than many other game elements. A real significant balance has to be achieved. I just think that 4E rushed out the door without it, just like Battlerage Vigor rushed out the door without taking minions into account. IMO.

I definitely think that multiclassing can be improved. I have heard that multiclassing went through many different options during development. It appeared that the one that went to print was the one that probably is the least likely to be broken. I heard that one option allowed players more flexibility by cherry picking features from two different classes. It sounded a lot like hybrid characters.

The multiclass feats in Primal Power was quite interesting in that they require the first MC feat as a prerequisite. Also, there are no MC feats at the paragon tier. I find this to be an interesting change. It has caused me to at least speculate that there may be some changes to how multiclassing works when the PH3 is released. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking. Although multiclassing isn't broken, the many complaints about it since the very beginning have been fairly consistent.

I do understand why so many people are unimpressed with multiclassing. Hybrids have had a much better reception. I guess personally for me, it just works for the characters I want to play. It's not like I have though of some awesomely broken combo or anything. It just feels like it fits my character. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones. My character happens to be an eladrin fighter/wizard. I plan to primarily use close blast attack powers and I do plan to choose the paragon multiclassing when I reach level 11.
 
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Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones. My character happens to be an eladrin fighter/wizard. I plan to primarily use close blast attack powers and I do plan to choose the paragon multiclassing when I reach level 11.

I put together an Eladrin Wizard that wanted to melee fight a bit. I took Multiclassing Shaman, effectively to get a blocker, and then took Melee Training Int to allow my PC to fight with a weapon. The multiclassing had really nothing to do with becoming a better Defender since that option really wasn't available.

It sort of, kind of, got me where I wanted to be, but the Multiclassing rules were not there to get me Fighter/Wizard (i.e. Defender role plus Controller role). That's what I would have taken if there were good Fighter/Wizard multiclass rules (hybrid not allowed in this campaign). I didn't feel comfortable creating my similar PC to how you created yours, maybe since you started with Fighter (presumably) whereas I started with Wizard.

It does seem like there are quite a few feats like Melee Training showing up, just to shore up the multiclassing rules. And Bard and Hybrid has come out to help out as well, but I still think it's not quite there yet.
 

It sort of, kind of, got me where I wanted to be, but the Multiclassing rules were not there to get me Fighter/Wizard (i.e. Defender role plus Controller role). That's what I would have taken if there were good Fighter/Wizard multiclass rules (hybrid not allowed in this campaign). I didn't feel comfortable creating my similar PC to how you created yours, maybe since you started with Fighter (presumably) whereas I started with Wizard.

Yeah. I started as a fighter and then took the multiclassed wizard feat that gave me Thunderwave as an encounter power. I'm still at low levels, but plan to take more close blast or close burst powers. Mechanically, I find that a fighter/wizard works much better than a wizard/fighter. Adding wizard abilities to a full fledged fighter is easier as long as you try to use close attack powers since you are in melee most of the time.

I cannot see it working the other way around. Some combos just doesn't seem to be viable. If you are a wizard, you are most likely the character who needs to be protected. If you add a bit of fighter, you're basically making the enemy hit you even more than they want to in the first place.

I think its the nature of trying to combine two different classes together that causes the end result to vary greatly depending on the combo. With multiclassing, the order is important as well. I don't know if it would be possible to ensure that there are no weak combos and no broken combos when designing a system to combine two classes together in a class-based system.

It does seem like there are quite a few feats like Melee Training showing up, just to shore up the multiclassing rules. And Bard and Hybrid has come out to help out as well, but I still think it's not quite there yet.

I think that they can improve upon both multiclassing and hybrids. So far, the two hybrid characters I have seen seem to fair pretty well compared to single classed characters. I'm fairly happy with hybrids from what I have seen and from what I have heard. Multiclassing can use more of an improvement.

I'm not too excited about Melee Training as it only applies to basic attacks. Many melee class powers that do not count as basic attacks will not benefit from this feat.

The bard I find is rather limiting. If I want to multiclass as two different classes, I do not want to have to be a bard first and then take two multiclass feats. Combat Virtuoso is really needed for a bard because he may end up multiclassing to more than one other class and thus without the feat would need more than two attack stats.
 

It does seem like there are quite a few feats like Melee Training showing up, just to shore up the multiclassing rules.
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I'm not seeing how Melee Training has anything to do with multiclassing, since what it affects are your Melee Basic Attacks, and not your multi-class powers. It's more about defeating the cognitive dissonance that arises when you have a melee-focused hit-monkey like a rogue or avenger suddenly unable to hit the broadside of an enemy who has turned their back and walked away, or when the party warlord has provided a nice opening.

-Dan'L
 

The multiclass rules are a bit weak ... it would probably be a bit better if you didn't need 4 power swap feats to qualify for paragon multiclassing, and then getting the paragon multiclass at the cost of any other paragon multiclass (getting an at-will swap at the cost of an action point ability or relevant 16th level effect). They tried to give class features as feats you get when you paragon multiclass, but that is a huge prerequisite.

BUT ... they seem to have changed their mind with Primal Power. Instead of the 'alternate path into the class (which at least addressed the problem of forced duplication of skills)' or 'paragon multiclass' feats, they have "gain a class feature, or something like it" as a feat that requires the multiclass feat to qualify. More of those would be nice ... and the X Power 2 books are just the place to put them. They can address the multiclass "problem" in terms of not being good at giving class features using future feats (although the paragon mutliclass thing and power swap feats should be fixed somehow ... maybe reducing it to 1 or 2 feats instead of 3, and improving how the paragon multiclassing actually works ... maybe giving class features at 11 and 16 to make it more like a REAL paragon path?)

As for Hybrid Classes ... what class features do people really want? Many classes have relatively minor class features (I doubt many would spend a feat to get prime shot or rogue weapon talent), leaving two "big" options: Armor related class feature (Avenger's Armor of Faith, Paladin's proficiency up to Plate, Sorceror using STR in place of INT or DEX in light armor) and the class features that are related to power choices (build types). Not being allowed to have say ... an Avenger/Swordmage hybrid that can easily get both armor of faith and warding working ... or forcing the sorceror/rogue to choose between benefitting from wild mage powers or artful dodger powers ... that seems like prventing a class frombeing better than either half. And they can still get those two options at paragon tier. Based on where the original hybrid was compared to this one ... they aimed below the balance "bar" to avoid going over powered. The second itteration got better, and there is a chance for more power before the book itself drops. To paraphrase a sentiment above ... it's better to give the DM the option to up the power level, than for the DM to have to reduce the power level. The DM would rather be giving the player something extra than to have to take something away.
 

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