How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Garthanos]

Maybe you could also make it: Spend HP equal to your HS value or spend HP equal to your bloodied value.
So you can cast it faster when it matters, but you pay a high price for it.

The idea of being able to "push their luck".... heros using risky short cuts to do whatever it is they do "better" or "more extremely" I rather like. Rather like Blood-mage with various flavors attached and perhaps other effects than just damage boosting.

 

[keterys]

But Tenser's Disc is a carry-stuff spell, at its heart. Exactly why do you -need- 'Carry Stuff' to be instant? Carrying Stuff is not exactly the sort of thing that -needs- a sense of urgency 9/10ths of the time.

I don't. I actually meant that if you wanted it instant (so that you could use it for things like, say, being able to cart away a dead or dying ally in combat, get over a piece of harmful terrain, prop up a falling statue, that kind of thing, I imagine), you should reduce the power of the base ritual. Since Tenser's Disc is a great ritual, as written, and earlier I said that at high level it's worth casting every day.

Or, roll Thievery, and stop trying to obsolete the use of skills in encounters. The whole -point- behind making rituals non-instant is so that you're not making the Theivery skill obsolete.

And 35g and 1 healing surge per lock _attempt_ already does that. In fact, not dealing with traps already does that. Even in previous editions, Knock didn't trump lockpicks, because locks were no big deal.

And if by 'in encounters' you mean 'in combat' then the 1 minute time I suggested does _that_ too.

Again, I'm not the guy who suggested instant rituals.

More rituals is great. Ten minutes is -no time- outside an encounter.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

'I cast a ritual.'
'DM: You do it. Roll the dice.'
'That was easy.'

And other than for item enchant/transferral/disenchantment, it would have instead been in the couple of modules where I've seen the rituals Tenser's Disc and Knock tried to use to solve problems:
'I cast a ritual.'
'DM: How long does it take?'
'10 minutes'
'DM: Okay, anyone else want to solve the problem before he wastes his time and spell components?'

Knock is not faster than a Theivery character, by design. But if you -have- a Theivery character, WHY ARE YOU PICKING UP A REDUNDANT RITUAL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

I wasn't talking about Thievery. I was talking about the 'Crowbar' skill. And fwiw, my artificer with thievery still has the Knock ritual. It was on a ritual book. I learned it. If I ever chose to cast it - and it'd need to be a lock that I couldn't get through on a 34 (+14 after bonuses, take 20), but thought was worth trying by rolling +20s at 35g and a surge each _and_ thought wasn't worth just destroying the lock.

Some of the rituals are designed to -replace- those skills should you have them missing. So, if you -don't- have someone trained in Theivery, Knock becomes the superior and faster option. Not fast enough to use in combat, but once combat is over, no problem. Done.

Knock isn't superior if you're worried about time. Or noise. Or expense. It's _only_ superior if you can't stand to break the lock you're going through _and_ can't use Thievery. Since opening a lock doesn't require training in the skill, that also means that the, say, archer who picked up thieves tools can 'take 20' (in one fifth the time required for the ritual) and get through any tier appropriate lock.

Maybe the problem isn't that rituals aren't 'shiney' enough, but that you're picking the rituals that other members of your party can already cover. Instead, take the rituals that -aren't- redundant, and you'll find them more satisfying.

Oh, I have no particular intention of ever casting Knock. Even without access to someone with Thievery, Knock is so badly designed that its usability is minimal. Which is my point. There _are_ some good rituals, but Knock is a fantastic example of a _bad_ one. Which is partially what we were discussing (we have wandered far afield indeed).

 

[KarinsDad]

But Tenser's Disc is a carry-stuff spell, at its heart. Exactly why do you -need- 'Carry Stuff' to be instant? Carrying Stuff is not exactly the sort of thing that -needs- a sense of urgency 9/10ths of the time.

I don't know. I can remember at least a few times in 2E and 3E where a Tenser's Disk was used to get a helpless PC out of danger in combat, or for other ways to move some heavy objects quickly in combat.

It actually -does- give you a few more feet as a boost.

Ooh. Good argument. Casting a Tenser's Disk several hundred GP ritual scroll to gain a few more feet for a Climb in combat is WAY unbalanced. BAN IT!!!

I'm thinking a piece of furniture or other object will do just as well or better. And those are free. Or are your dungeons totally devoid of objects?

Or, roll Thievery, and stop trying to obsolete the use of skills in encounters. The whole -point- behind making rituals non-instant is so that you're not making the Theivery skill obsolete.

And if none of the PCs have Thievery? Is the DM just supposed to unlock all the doors in the dungeon?

If the party does have Thievery, they won't often use a component costing Knock ritual, will they?

More rituals is great. Ten minutes is -no time- outside an encounter.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

'I cast a ritual.'
'DM: You do it. Roll the dice.'
'That was easy.'

Not the point. The point is to allow non-combat utility spells in combat so that players can do something other than:

"I swing, I hit, I swing, I miss"

which the vast majority of combat power are.

The few utility powers in the core game system are mostly combat oriented as well. Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Bless. The list goes on and on. Sure, there are a few movement powers, but even many of those are combat oriented and would rarely be used outside of combat. And, there might be a slim handful of utility powers that are not combat oriented, but meh.

The entire game except for skill challenges is combat oriented. If a player wants to do some miscellaneous task in combat, they are for the most part, handcuffed to the skill set which means that the player who wants to do this, only has a small number of options that can be reasonably successful because most PCs have only a handful of trained skills.

Want to find a secret door that you are confident is there in combat in order to have a choke point? Fine. Perception. Missed the roll? What can you do now to find it? Probably nothing.

If one had the Detect Secret Door 1 standard action ritual scroll, they'd have a good chance of finding it. And, at a GP cost.

There are hundreds of examples where a ritual scroll could help IF and only if a player wants to spend gold in order to have this level of versatility.

It isn't free.

And, 10 minutes is actually a HUGE amount of time in combat.

Actually, it depends.

Knock is not faster than a Theivery character, by design. But if you -have- a Theivery character, WHY ARE YOU PICKING UP A REDUNDANT RITUAL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Players probably wouldn't. It's an option.


You haven't written one thing that indicates that this is really a bad idea.

This is an idea that allows players to have fun. Obviously, players will not use Knock right away (too costly) if Thievery is available. Obviously, players will not use Knock on every single locked door if Thievery is unavailable (they'll run out of ritual scrolls and spend a lot of money).


So explain the difference between Magical and Alchemical potions and other inexpensive miscellaneous spells ritual scrolls.

How is one SO acceptable and the other SO terrible?

I think thou dost protest too much.

 

[AllisterH]

Money is not actually a limiting factor on the long run though.

At 1st level, sure, KNOCK is expensive not only to learn but also to CAST every time.

By 21st level though, a 1000 KNOCK scrolls is literally pocket change for any character.

And, like most rituals, Knock doesn't become less effective as you level. Rituals would need a balancing factor which is the time or you could use the Raise Dead method of increasing the ritual cost per tier so that players don't default to magic.

EDIT: Knock, technically, is superior to Thievery as your Knock roll can get higher than your Thievery roll (Knock gets a bonus)

 

[KarinsDad]

Money is not actually a limiting factor on the long run though.

At 1st level, sure, KNOCK is expensive not only to learn but also to CAST every time.

By 21st level though, a 1000 KNOCK scrolls is literally pocket change for any character.

And, like most rituals, Knock doesn't become less effective as you level. Rituals would need a balancing factor which is the time or you could use the Raise Dead method of increasing the ritual cost per tier so that players don't default to magic.

EDIT: Knock, technically, is superior to Thievery as your Knock roll can get higher than your Thievery roll (Knock gets a bonus)

Actually, I changed the monetary system first before anything else for 4E. I've always had a problem with the difference between high and low level treasure deltas.

The difference between a first level magic item in the book and a 30th level item is a factor of 8680 to 1.

In my house rules, it's 800 to 1.

That significantly increases the number of levels before a given item is pocket change.

And at Epic level, I have no problem with a pocket change Knock spell. The scale is Epic at that level. Pedestrian solutions should no longer apply. The 10 foot pole should be a thing of the distant past for the players at that point. PCs should blast their ways through dungeon walls with Passwall or blast their way through dungeon doors with Knock at those levels. IMO.


I find it hillarious to consider 5 25th level demigod-like PCs with their shiny magic items and their artifacts, all standing around bored and impatient, waiting for 10 minutes for the Druid to cast an Animal Messager ritual.

"Would you get on with it??? The volcano is going to blow at any minute."

The mental image is priceless.


I consider the lack of quick miscellaneous minor spells a major design flaw and omission to the 4E rules, so I fixed it for my game. Shrug.

 

[AllisterH]

I find it hillarious to consider 5 25th level demigod-like PCs with their shiny magic items and their artifacts, all standing around bored and impatient, waiting for 10 minutes for the Druid to cast an Animal Messager ritual.

"Would you get on with it??? The volcano is going to blow at any minute."

The mental image is priceless.

Why would you consider it a hilarious idea that it takes 10 minutes for a person to get an animal to deliver a message to anyone that animal can reach in 24 hours?

EDIT: Note, there _IS_ an Epic Destiny that allows for a caster to use a ritual as a standard action. 30th level cap ability?

 

[Derren]

It's a fantasy world. The dragon approaches from below, from within a cloudbank, etc. It lands no problem on the ship because it is fantasy physics, not real world physics. No actual problems, at least according to the rules.

Why doesn't the dragon disable the ship by destroying the mast (or whatever it uses for propulsion) and then take off again to "sink" the ship from below where the PCs can't attack it?

 

[AllisterH]

Why doesn't the dragon disable the ship by destroying the mast (or whatever it uses for propulsion) and then take off again to "sink" the ship from below where the PCs can't attack it?

Depends on how easily accessible the propulsion system is...

IIRC, in Eberron, it literally is easier to destroy the rest of the ship rather than release the elemental since there are so many protective charms and shielding on the propulsion.

Similarly, in Spelljammer, destroying the helm (the thing that actually allows for spelljamming) is a monumental task and the ship itself is easier to destroy....

 

[KarinsDad]

Why would you consider it a hilarious idea that it takes 10 minutes for a person to get an animal to deliver a message to anyone that animal can reach in 24 hours?

The hilarious part is these god-like Superheroes impatiently standing around unable to do anything.

It's like the image of Superman pacing, waiting around for Wonder Woman to go pee before they can leave.

Sorry if you don't get the humor of a minor mundane event preventing the heroes from going off and saving the world.

EDIT: Note, there _IS_ an Epic Destiny that allows for a caster to use a ritual as a standard action. 30th level cap ability?

Yup. And every single party has THAT ability.

 

[AllisterH]

Sorry if you don't get the humor of a minor mundane event preventing the heroes from going off and saving the world.

Heracles and Beowulf are EPIC characters and neither of them possess this ability.

The fact that you can get a message to anybody pretty much undetected (even with the existence and knowledge of rituals, who actually pays attention to the church mouse?) that said creature can travel in 24 hours is considered "mundane" I personally disagree with.

There are some rituals I think are too weak, namely the "scrying type rituals" but generally speaking, chalk me up as one that LIKES the fact that players have to think beforehand about using rituals.

For example, in your scenario, if the volcano is going to blow up in 10 minutes, why would you bother with Animal messenger since the creature will only be able to travel in that 10 minute frame.

My group again uses rituals like they're going crazy but I think it helps that rituals are seen as a group thing so even the guy playing the fighter is always looking for a way to use rituals.