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4E Alternity?

Well, if you're talking skill checks, that's easy: a variable outcome for how much you beat the DC by. If I were going to do O/G/A for powers in 4E, I would use the build-specific modifiers as a guideline, especially for Encounter powers. Considering hitting defenses, I would consider beating the defense by 5 for a Good result and 10 for an Amazing result a decent starting point (Ordinary is normal). For crits, max damage as normal in 4E, but determine the result normally.

An example power:

[sblock]Double Tap
If the first attack doesn't kill it, the second one might.

At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a ranged weapon.
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage per attack. Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Good: 1[W] + Dex damage
Amazing: 1[W] + Dex damage, and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn.
Special: Determine Good and Amazing success for each attack separately.
[/sblock]


The wound track is relatively easy: use the disease tracks as a guideline to build them. Then, powers might shift you along the Stun, Wound, or Mortal tracks when they get better results. I would definitely be hesitant to allow at-wills to move along any track but the Stun track. The Mortal track basically replaces the death saving throws.

EDIT: On further thought though, I'm not certain that the Alternity wound tracks are really necessary. HP basically represent the Stun track, Healing Surges are basically the Wound track, and death saves are the Mortal track. Personally, while I like the tracks, I don't think they're really necessary if you're going to make a 4E-style Alternity.
I am not familar with Alternaty, but the idea of different success rates instead of a simple pass/failure always appealed to me.

One way I would consider would be to use the naked die roll (just as with a critical hit, except in this case, in reverse order) to determine the degree of a success, if one happens at all. For example:
1-10: Amazing Success
11-15: Good Success
16-20: Normal Success

The interesting thing is that this mechanic rewards high modifiers instead of merely high rolls - if you're so bad you only hit on a 20, you don't get any extra benefits. But if you can hit even with a 7, you're skill is rewarded.

Of course, a disadvantage is that you don't get much out of it if you roll high and are good.
 

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Mournblade94

Adventurer
And Alternity 'might' be alive and well still, but I'd really like to see a updated, more modern, version of the game. That's what this thread is all about. Will we ever see it, most likely not, but it would be neat to brainstorm.

HOw exactly though would 4e mean it is updated? How even would 4e mean it is modern? 4e would add nothing to the already updated and modern style of alternity.

If your going to brainstorm for a NEW alternity, might as well use systems that actually work for it, or make a new system entirely.
 
Last edited:

ValhallaGH

Explorer
HOw exactly though would 4e mean it is updated? How even would 4e mean it is modern? 4e would add nothing to the already updated and modern style of alternity.

If your going to brainstorm for a NEW alternity, might as well use systems that actually work for it, or make a new system entirely.
What!? You've already done what the OP was asking about, and discovered that it didn't work out?
...
Huh, well would you mind sharing your work so that we can all take a look? If nothing else, it will let us understand the actual reasons you say it won't work, increasing communication and shutting down frustration for everyone participating in or reading this thread.
 

Mournblade94

Adventurer
There has been nothing shown that the 4e rules system would make Alternity "updated" or "modern". How can those terms even be applied?

Lots of work has already been done with alternity keeping it line with the original spirit. It is not broken, why shoehorn it into a system that would take it into a different direction. In my experience at Dexcon, I met a group of people that wanted a sci fi game. They wanted to 'convert' alternity to 4e, yet they never tried the original rules. IF they tried the original rules they would probably see there is no 'update' necessary.

There is no reason to slow down combat for alternity, make the skill system less precise, or shoe horn in powers.

I have done alot of work on alternity, and I have not used 4e because it is self evident it will not work.

My point is there are many places too look to 'update' alternity other than the 4e bandwagon. It would be as if I was trying to "update" alternity using the Marvel Superheroes System. There are better fits.
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
Ok mr mournblade, you can go liking the original version of Alternity all you want, and that's fine with me. I have the original game myself, and its a fine game, but I am intrigued by the idea myself and this thread is about the possibility of seeing if its possible, and you are doing your best to convince us that its impossible and a stupid idea to even try.

Get over yourself. This is for us who want to try it a different way, not go with the same old thing that, while it works, we want it differently, and your only causing frustration. You've said your piece, now please let us have our fun and stop ruining it for us.

Just because you don't see a way for it to work doesn't mean the rest of us don't either. I live outside the box, and there's a lot of ideas that could be tried to see if it could be made or not. Please stop downing our ideas and if you can't be constructive to the discussion then don't respond anymore in this thread.

Your trolling. Please stop it.

----------------------

For the rest of us, I like what few ideas we have come up with so far, and lets keep it a positive thread and see what happens. If every idea was met with a wall that was insurmountable, we wouldn't have airplanes that fly, or space shuttles that can fly into space, or any number of things that a person would say could be impossible but it wasn't. And we wouldn't have our different rpg's out here that we all like.

Let's keep the positive ideas coming. I'm not going to let one or two poeple who are so attached to the past ruin the possibility of something good being made for the future, and even if we don't get a game out of this thread, at least we can brainstorm and see what's possible. That's what gaming is all about.
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
Well, Here's a start:
Races[sblock]
Fraal
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Mindspeak
Skill Bonuses: +2 Culture, +2 Mindwalking, +2 Science
Psionic Heritage: You gain a bonus psionic feat at 1st level. You must meet the feat's prerequisites
Resilient Mind: You gain a +5 raical bonus to saving throws against telepathy effects

Mechalus
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Alereen, Terran
Skill Bonuses: +2 Computers, +2 Endurance, +2 Pilot
Cyber Tolerance: The healing surge cost of your installed cyberware is reduced by 1.
Overclock: You can use overclock as an encounter power

Overclock Mechalus Racial Power
You send your bio-circuits into overdrive, but your impressive achievement comes at a cost
Encounter
No Action Personal
Trigger:
You fail an attack roll, a saving throw, a skill check, or an ability check
Effect: lose a number of hit points equal to the amount by which you failed, plus one-half your level. Your roll becomes a success

Sesheyan
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares, Fly 6
Vision: Darkvision

Languages: Sheya, Terran
Skill Bonuses: +2 Acrobatics, +2 Perception, +2 Survival
Light Sensitivity: A Sesheyan in bright light takes a -1 penalty to all attack rolls and skill checks, and grants combat advantage.

T'sa
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Terran, T'san
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Engineering, +2 Manipulation
Tough Hide: You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class
Quick Reaction: You gain a +2 racial bonus to initiative checks.
Enduring Optimism: You gain a +1 racial bonus to will defense.

Weren
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Terran, Weren
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth
Durability: You gain bonus hit points equal to 5 plus half your level.
Chameleon Fur: You gain a +1 racial bonus to reflex.
Vicious Claws: You gain unarmed combat proficiency, and your unarmed attack damage is 1d8
Sudden Swipe: You can use sudden swipe as an encounter power
Primitive: Your starting skills and proficiencies are limited by your background. See the individual class descriptions for details.

Sudden Swipe Weren Racial Power
The swipe of your sharp claw catches an enemy by surprise.
Encounter • Weapon
Minor Action Melee
1
Target: One Creature
Special: You must attack with your unarmed strike
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength Modifier damage.[/sblock]
This looks like a great start on the races. I'll admit, my first and primary exposure to Star*Drive was in d20 Future, but even so this still fits the flavor of those races as I've come to know them. Definitely a solid beginning.
Classes [sblock]
Combat Spec
Armor Proficiency: Medium
Weapon Proficiency: Melee, Modern Ranged, Unarmed
Systems Proficiency: Defenses, Weapons
Bonus To Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex

Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 8 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: 3 class skills, 1 unrestricted skill
Class Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate, Perception, Survival

Primitive Combat Specs: Lose modern ranged weapons proficiency and all systems proficiencies. Gain primitive ranged weapons proficiency.

Class Features: Warrior's Mark, Weapon Mastery

Warrior's Mark: When attacking, you can choose to mark one target of your attack until the end of your next turn.

Weapon Mastery: Choose a weapon group. Attacks using weapons from that group gain +1 to hit and +2 to damage. This bonus increases to +4 at 11th level, and +6 at 21st.

Diplomat
Armor Proficiency: Cloth only
Weapon Proficiency: Modern Pistols
Systems Proficiency: Communications, any one other
Bonus To Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: 2 class skills, 4 unrestricted skill
Class Skills: Bluff, Business, Culture, Diplomacy, Insight

Primitive Diplomats: Lose modern pistols proficiency and all systems proficiencies. Pilot is not considered a class skill for you.

Class Features: Affinity, Invoke Contact

Affinity: Choose a second class. You are considered a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites

Invoke Contact: One per day, you can call upon a contact to perform some favor. You begin with the "I know an expert" and "I'm on the list" powers. You can gain more invoke contact powers with feats, but you can only use one such power per day.

I Know an Expert Diplomat Feature
Though you and your companions are puzzled by a question, you're sure your knowledgeable friend can sort it out
Daily
Invoke Contact:
You can only use one invoke contact power per day.
Effect: You contact an expert, who makes a knowledge check for you. The expert's knowledge skill bonus is 5 plus half your level plus your charisma modifier
Special: The check must be one where you could conceivably contact an expert, and you must have some means of communication and devote the necessary time to make contact.

I'm on the List Diplomat Feature
You don't need an invitation, you just need to know the right people.
Daily
Invoke Contact:
You can only use one invoke contact power per day.
Effect: You (and guests) are admitted to an exclusive gathering or event to which you were not otherwise invited.
Special: This power only provides benefit where reputation and social standing might be of some use. You could use this power to attend the planetary governor's ball or talk your way into a private high-stakes card tournament, but not to participate in an intelligence briefing or talk your way into a mob's warehouse.

Free Agent
Armor Proficiency: Light
Weapon Proficiency: Knife, Modern Pistols, Unarmed
Systems Proficiency: Helm, Sensors
Bonus To Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: 4 class skills, 6 unrestricted skill
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Manipulation, Perception, Pilot, Stealth, Streetwise, Survival

Primitive Free Agents: Lose modern pistols proficiency and all systems proficiencies. Gain primitive ranged weapons proficiency. Pilot is not considered a class skill for you.

Class Features: Lucky, Wing it

Lucky: You can spend an action point to re-roll a failed attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. You gain a +2 bonus to the new roll, but must take the new result even if it is worse than the original.

Wing it: One per day, you can treat an untrained skill as trained, or use an at-will or encounter power you qualify for but do not possess.

Tech Op
Armor Proficiency: Light
Weapon Proficiency: Modern Ranged
Systems Proficiency: All
Bonus To Defense: +1 Reflex, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: 4 class skills, 3 unrestricted skill
Class Skills: Computers, Engineering, Manipulation, Medicine, Perception, Pilot, Science

Primitive Tech Ops: Lose modern ranged proficiency. Gain primitive ranged weapons proficiency. Only Proficient with one system of your choice. Only trained in 2 class skills and 2 unrestricted skills.

Class Features: Bonus Feat, Skill Mastery

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, you gain one additional Tech Op feat or Specilization feat for a Tech Op class skill.

Skill Mastery: Choose one skill. When making checks with this skill, you can always take 10, regardless of the circumstances.[/sblock]

Skill List[sblock]
Code:
Acrobatics	DEX
Athletics	STR
Bluff		CHA
Business	INT
Computers	INT
Culture		WIS
Diplomacy	CHA
Endurance	CON
Engineering	INT
Insight		WIS
Intimidate	CHA
Manipulation	DEX
Medicine	INT
Mindwalking	WIS
Perception	WIS
Pilot		DEX
Stealth		DEX
Streetwise	CHA
Science		INT
Survival	CON
[/sblock]
I really like this stuff. A beefy class list, with a number of nice features, without being too huge. A solid skill list to start with. Nice.
Issues:
  • That's a lot of HP for a game that supposed to be fast and furious. I like the starting HP (enough to be heroic) but after that, I'd prefer your 1 hp per level suggestion from down-thread.
  • What is Survival supposed to be, that Endurance is not already doing? I was going with "re-skinned Nature" and then I noticed the CON basis. So, what's up with that?
  • Being Primitive really hoses your character. Shouldn't most classes at least get some sort of simple melee proficiency?
Well, if you're talking skill checks, that's easy: a variable outcome for how much you beat the DC by. If I were going to do O/G/A for powers in 4E, I would use the build-specific modifiers as a guideline, especially for Encounter powers. Considering hitting defenses, I would consider beating the defense by 5 for a Good result and 10 for an Amazing result a decent starting point (Ordinary is normal). For crits, max damage as normal in 4E, but determine the result normally.

An example power:

[sblock]Double Tap
If the first attack doesn't kill it, the second one might.

At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a ranged weapon.
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage per attack. Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Good: 1[W] + Dex damage
Amazing: 1[W] + Dex damage, and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn.
Special: Determine Good and Amazing success for each attack separately.
[/sblock]
A most excellent collection of ideas. I especially like Double Tap, which is a fine example of what you suggest. I would note that for clarity, each level should probably read "As Hit + [stuff]" instead of repeating the early Hit line. This is to short-circuit any rules-confusion about any changes that may occur to "Hit" but aren't listed in "Good" and "Amazing" (such as the increase to 2[W]).
EDIT: On further thought though, I'm not certain that the Alternity wound tracks are really necessary. HP basically represent the Stun track, Healing Surges are basically the Wound track, and death saves are the Mortal track. Personally, while I like the tracks, I don't think they're really necessary if you're going to make a 4E-style Alternity.
This, this I really, really, really like. It ties together the spirit of both without adding new mechanics.
Hit point revision:
As mentioned earlier, Yes.
Attacks either deal Stun damage our Wound damage. Armor has a soak rate--wound damage up to the soak rate is converted to stun damage, and stun damage up to the soak rate is ignored.

A character whose combined stun and wound damage equals or exceeds their maximum hp is knocked unconscious. If the character has taken at least half as wound damage, they begin dying.

When an attack scores a critical hit (normally, a natural 20 on the die), the target must make an Endurance check (DC determined by weapon), or fall unconscious. Whether or not they fell unconscious, if the attack dealt wound damage, the character begins dying.

Characters have 3+Con mod mortal points. A dying character must pass a saving throw every round or lose a mortal point. If the character rolls a 20 on the saving throw, or receives medical attention, they are no longer dying and do not make saving throws or lose further mortal points. If a character looses all mortal points, they die.

Characters regain all stun damage with a short rest. Characters regain 1/4 of their total wound damage with an extended rest. Characters who receive medical attention while taking an extended rest regain all their hp and one mortal point.
That's ... a lot of fairly complex new rules to add in.
I suspect that you'd be better served with something closer to LightPheonix's suggestion. Then, nasty weapons can deal X hp damage Plus Y healing surges; boom, you've got an incredibly nasty gun, especially if you toss in as a general rule "characters that lose a healing surge but don't have any left lose a number of hp equal to their surge value". Then all the rules changes are 1 sentence and new weapon stats.
Much easier to remember, much easier to adjudicate, and much easier to track in-game.
It could work like Alternity, every so many skill ranks, and 4e Alternity would work better with more skills than D&D and use skill ranks, but every so many ranks a person can pick a Skill Power based on the skill, enhancing the use of that skill when you use it.
This is an awesome and brilliant idea.
If we end up with a more D&D model, with automatic skill progressions, then this idea still works. Simply change the power requirements to "Trained in [Skill]" and "Character Level [X]". And throw in the "Skill Focus in [Skill]" requirement for the really crazy abilities that key off of hyper-focus.
This could trim down the number of Feats in the game tremendously, as the Feats would be built into the Skill Powers system like this.
A wonderful benefit, and one that keeps the heavy skill emphasis.
Doing this, you could actually then mimic the Combat Skills system in Alternity as well. Keep Levels with your Professions, as the Level would dictate Profession Powers, but in addition to Level bonuses your combat skills could provide unique Combat Skill Powers.
Huh. I'm not sure about this one, since this feels like the rules space filled by Class Powers. Of course, if you replace classes with characters that mix-and-match Profession to deed, you get something else, something that may need this.
So, suddenly the skills chapter is as bloated and complicated as the Class chapter of the PHB.

Another option is to give each profession certain Keywords that they can choose for their powers. Then, they turn to the "Powers" chapter and choose X/Y/X at-will/encounter/daily powers of appropriate levels and keywords.*

*This idea is stolen from a friend of mine and his many rants about what he dislikes in 4E.


P.S. Don't quote this post. It's already too long.
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
I think that we can have combat skills in the game instead of just having a simple base combat bonus like every other single d20 OGL/GSL game out there. It would be different.

Make A4e (Alternity 4e for now, somebody else can come up with something better) unique like that. And, because they would be skills, and have their own possible skill powers, like how to use different weapons differently, or whatever, it would bring more options for character that focus on them.

The greatest thing about Alternity is its skills system and its O/G/A system that's already built into it. Having different Professions get different skills at different costs is what really sets it apart, and that can be done here also. It would really make being a Soldier different than a Tech Specialist different than a Explorer. And it would make it different than D&D.
 


ValhallaGH

Explorer
The greatest thing about Alternity is its skills system and its O/G/A system that's already built into it. Having different Professions get different skills at different costs is what really sets it apart, and that can be done here also. It would really make being a Soldier different than a Tech Specialist different than a Explorer. And it would make it different than D&D.

After considerable thought, I'm going to support this idea. I'm not wedded to it but I am going to work with it and see what emerges.
 


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