Cure/inflict wounds spells revision

[Kerrick]

I came up with this idea during a discussion about altering the cure wounds spells. My idea: Use the base amount + 1d8/2 levels, +1/caster level, with the standard cap (CLW at L5, CMW at L10, CSW at L15, and CCW at L20. So, with CLW, we get...

L1: 1d8+1 (same as now)
L3: 2d8+3 (vs. 1d8+3)
L5: 2d8+5 (vs. 1d8+5)

CMW becomes:

L3: 1d8+1d8+3 (same as now)
L6: 1d8+3d8+6
L8: 1d8+4d8+8
L10: 1d8+5d8+10 (37; not very much at L10, but still useful)

CSW:

L5: 3d8+2d8+5
L8: 3d8+4d8+8
L10: 3d8+5d8+10 (46; better than CMW, but not overwhelmingly so)
L15: 3d8+7d8+15 (60)

CCW:

L7: 3d8 + 3d8 + 7 (better than 4d8+7, but less than CSW at L8 and more than CLW at L8, which is good).
L10: 3d8 + 5d8 + 10
L15: 4d8+7d8+15 (4.5 better than CSW at the same level, which is comparable to the existing spells).
L20: 3d8 + 10d8 + 20 (78. A respectable number).

Compare to heal: 10 points/level, max of 150 at L15. This spell would remain unchanged, as it's not an actual "cure wounds" spell - it heals damage as well as other effects, putting it in a class of its own.


The mass spells (vanilla) work this way: Extra healing power is capped at 5 x CL. Why they did that is beyond me, but whatever. Since mass spells always have a lower number of dice, I would probably (off the top of my head) go with base amount + 1d8/3 levels + 1/level, with the cap at 3 x CL. So...

Mass CLW (caps at L15)
L9: 1d8 + 3d8 + 9
L12: 1d8 + 4d8 + 12 (34)
L15: 1d8 + 5d8 + 15 (42)

Mass CMW (cap at L20)
L11: 2d8 + 3d8 + 11
L14: 2d8 + 4d8 + 14
L20: 2d8 + 6d8 + 20 (56)

Mass CSW (caps at L25)
L13: 3d8 + 4d8 + 13
L20: 3d8 + 6d8 + 20 (60)
L25: 3d8 + 8d8 + 25 (74)

Mass CCW (caps at L30)
L15: 4d8 + 5d8 + 15
L20: 4d8 + 6d8 + 20 (65)
L25: 4d8 + 8d8 + 25 (79)
L30: 4d8 + 10d8 + 30 (93)

The only thing I'm wondering: Is it too complicated to total up everything? I mean, players shouldn't gain levels so quickly that they'll be changing their cure wounds totals all the time, but if you happen to find a magic item (wand, staff, whatever) that casts cure/inflict wounds... I dunno. Comments?

 

[Sadrik]

As discussed in the other thread.

1st CLW: 10/2d8 (averages 5.5-9.5 by RAW)
2nd CMW: 20/4d8 (averages 12-19 by RAW)
3rd CSW: 30/6d8 (averages 18.5-28.5 by RAW)
4th CCW: 40/8d8 (averages 25-38 by RAW)
5th Mass CLW: 20/4d8 (averages 13.5-24.5 by RAW)
6th Mass CMW: 30/6d8 (averages 20-29 by RAW)
7th Mass CSW: 40/8d8 (averages 26.5-33.5 by RAW)
8th Mass CCW: 50/10d8 (averages 33-38 by RAW)

6th Heal: 10/level or 2d8/level (110-150 by RAW)
9th Mass Heal: 10/level or 2d8/level (170-200 by RAW)

The argument for not using flat numbers is that heighten and maximize cannot be used. I kind of see it as a boon to not have to roll for them. On the flip side I could see them rolling 1d8 for each 5 points of curing so a mass CLW would roll 4d8. Inflicts should roll the dice.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

You could just multiply the amount healed/inflicted by one-half (or one-third, if that's too powerful) the target's Hit Dice and add that to the base amount cured/inflicted according to the RAW.

Thoughts?

 

[Kerrick]

You could just multiply the amount healed/inflicted by one-half (or one-third, if that's too powerful) the target's Hit Dice and add that to the base amount cured/inflicted according to the RAW.

Thoughts?

The problem with that is that the spells wouldn't be equal. If I cast CMW on Bob the Wizard, it heals 2d8 + 15 (1/3 his hp); if I cast it on Frank the Fighter, it heals 2d8 + 30. That's why they changed heal/harm from "heal all but 1d4 hp" to "heal 10/level" - you could use harm on a BBEG with 1000 hp and that would be it.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

The problem with that is that the spells wouldn't be equal. If I cast CMW on Bob the Wizard, it heals 2d8 + 15 (1/3 his hp); if I cast it on Frank the Fighter, it heals 2d8 + 30. That's why they changed heal/harm from "heal all but 1d4 hp" to "heal 10/level" - you could use harm on a BBEG with 1000 hp and that would be it.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. Should be Hit Dice, not Hit Points. I should have worded it differently. Let's try this:

Add 1d8 per three Hit Dice of the target to the base amount cured/inflicted according to the RAW. Or, for more powerful heals/inflicts, add 1d8 per two Hit Dice of the target to the base amount cured/inflicted according to the RAW.​

Using 1/3rd Target Hit Dice, if both Bob and Frank have the same number of Hit Dice, they'll receive similar amounts of healing. So, using the 1/3rd HD version, if they're both 10th level,

• Cure Light Wounds would heal 4d8+5.
• Cure Moderate Wounds would heal 5d8+10
• Cure Serious Wounds would heal 6d8+15
• Cure Critical Wounds would heal 7d8+20

If Bob and Frank were 5th level (five Hit Dice each), then...

• Cure Light Wounds would heal 2d8+5.
• Cure Moderate Wounds would heal 3d8+10
• Cure Serious Wounds would heal 4d8+15
• Cure Critical Wounds would heal 5d8+20

In these examples, I'm assuming the healer is high enough level to get the maximum bonus based on level added to the dice rolled.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I'd actually probably modify it further, as follows:

Cure Light Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1, Rgr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5) plus 1d8 per five Hit Dice of the target.

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

Cure Moderate Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Drd 3, Healing 2, Pal 3, Rgr 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 2d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +10) plus 1d8 per four Hit Dice of the target.

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

Cure Serious Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Pal 4, Rgr 4, Healing 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15) plus 1d8 per three Hit Dice of the target.

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

Cure Critical Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 5, Healing 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 4d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +20) plus 1d8 per two Hit Dice of the target.

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

 

[Noumenon]

Your post doesn't explain:
* Why you are doing this
* Why all the extra complication is worth it
* Whether powering up all the healing spells hurts the balance of the game
so it essentially seems like you are changing numbers at random.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Perhaps it's that the healing : total HP ratio decreases quite dramatically with level? I mean, for any given spell. So, lower level healing spells become more and more redundant.

But I don't really know. Just guessing.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Your post doesn't explain:
* Why you are doing this
* Why all the extra complication is worth it
* Whether powering up all the healing spells hurts the balance of the game
so it essentially seems like you are changing numbers at random.

I'm thinking this was addressed to Kerrick, but I'll take a stab at an answer. I wasn't part of the previous discussion that he mentions, so I don't know what's already been discussed.

* Why you are doing this
At low levels, Cure Light Wounds is very powerful... Able to bring someone back from the very serious wounds. To quote The Alexandrian, there is a

"significant and intractable problem with the hit point abstraction: The cure spells. Despite the fact that the number of hit points required to represent a wound with a particular severity varies depending on the character's total hit points, a cure spell heals a flat number of hit points. Thus, a cure light wounds spell used on a 1st level fighter will heal grievous wounds. When the same spell is used on a 10th level fighter, on the other hand, it can't handle more than a scratch.

This is a legacy issue which has been retained for reasons of game balance."​

I happen to agree with The Alexandrian and others that this is a problem, though I don't agree with The Alexandrian's solution. Nor do I think Kerrick's solution is simple enough. My head spun as I read the initial post. So, I offerred another potential solution.

In my line of thinking, there's something to including a variable that depends upon the the target (as The Alexandrian suggests later in the article that I quoted from). Cure Light Wounds should still be useful when cast upon a 10th level fighter. Perhaps, not as useful as the other more powerful spells, but more useful than 1d8+5. It should still heal a wound, not just a scratch.

* Why all the extra complication is worth it
In another discussion on another houserule, I came to value simplicity in houserules more than ever before. A houserule, in my opinion, shouldn't be too hard to remember or apply. That's why I presented the generic version before presenting the slightly more complex version that added a single phrase concerning the amount healed based upon the target's Hit Dice. The reason for the variation was to keep the various healing spells different in power. It may not be the best fix, either. It's just a suggestion as to how a solution to the problem might be approached.

* Whether powering up all the healing spells hurts the balance of the game
so it essentially seems like you are changing numbers at random.
It does change the balance of the game. Making healing (and inflict) spells more powerful (no matter how you do it) helps the most powerful core classes in the game. That's one of the reasons that I connect the boost in the spell power to the target's Hit Dice rather than the level of the caster. It's also why I chose to make Cure Light Wounds only add 1d8 per five Hit Dice of the target and why each more successively powerful version gives more healing based upon the target's Hit Dice. This keeps a clear difference between Curing Light Wounds and Curing Critical Wounds (and everything in between). The only problem is that Cure Light Wounds is still more likely to completely heal a first level target than it is to completely heal a higher level target. But, I can't think of a way around that without getting rid of the higher level cure spells and just having one spell that's based upon the caster level and the level of the target. And, that creates the problem of having a first level spell that's too useful at higher levels.

 

[nonsi256]

Hey Hrothgar,

I've been thinking.
Given your analysis, maybe the best approach to handle the topic is by making cure/cause spells do 1d8 HP per spell-level, plus 1 HP per target's HD per spell level... plus the option of maximizing the effect with a casting time of 1 full round per target.
This would make them scale nicely, leave a random factor and add the tactical decision of whether to heal during combat or later on (depending on severity & urgency).