Are wardens overpowered?

[Kzach]

Might want to add in Courage of the Lone Stag as well. +2 damage against opponents you've marked when you're adjacent to three marked opponents or more. As a defender, that tends to happen a lot.

 

[Mistwell]

Might want to add in Courage of the Lone Stag as well. +2 damage against opponents you've marked when you're adjacent to three marked opponents or more. As a defender, that tends to happen a lot.

In the actual game I plan on using this character in, we get Weapon Expertise and Paragon Defenses for free. So yes, I had that on my likely list of feats to add later one. Though I will see how it plays out. I suspect I will be wanting AC more than more another +2 damage, at higher levels.

 

[Bast1ano]

Hammer Warden OP

I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.

I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.

WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.

 

[Aulirophile]

I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.

I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.

WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.

22 minimum damage would be tough to pull off. 19 with +2 weapon, Crippling Crush, Maw of the Guardian, Iron Armbands, Strength, Weapon Focus, with a brutal 1 weapon would do it. Do you have his build?

Going to go out on a limb and say the Warden is heavily optimized and your strikers aren't, though. If you've never seen a Striker one-round an even level elite from full > dead, they aren't optimized (possible for Rogues, Rangers, Avengers, Barbarians... not so much Sorcs or Warlocks, but being able to Nova isn't part of their shtick).

 

[fba827]

you just have particular build choices that emphasized the defender/striker aspects
i don't think wardens as a class are overpowered.

(in my opinion) a class could be called overpowered when the base class itself does all those things without regard for items, feats, etc that are chosen - at least that is the measuring stick that i use..


a fighter is much better being sticky and if you chose items and feats to boost damage and toughness, then you'd end up with something similar with a slightly different focus and flavor.

of course, ymmv.

 

[ourchair]

I played a Warforged Warden for 11 levels straight, and I never felt overpowered.

I never went down at all, because I was maxing out CON, piling on temporary HPs and using Cloak of the Walking Wounded and Dwarven Armor to max out my ability to surge in a given encounter but I wasn't doing nearly as much damage as the Deva Avenger.

There's something to be said about the design of 4e that no matter how hard you min max something, other players in different roles will do things better than you do, so it is difficult to be a one-man party.

 

[Istar]

I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.

In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.

They have just about everything except self-healing. But even then, they have tons of healing surges!

A goliath earthstrength warden is a party unto himself.

I agree, our party had a Fighter and a Paladin, and when the Barbarian died he came back as a Warden and his is a million times better than these 2 in every respect.
Why would you be a fighter now ?
The health and surges are crazy, and on top of that he has easy THP and many powers and feats that trigger the use of surges, so they are effectively self healing.
On top of that they outdo a lot of class's on damage with a basic L1 at will that does over 15 HP and slows the enemy.

I am going to be a Dwarven Warden next campaign, they get more surges and add Con, and 2nd wind as a minor, plus I am sure you can create more 2nd winds.

 

[Istar]

I played a Warforged Warden for 11 levels straight, and I never felt overpowered.

I never went down at all, because I was maxing out CON, piling on temporary HPs and using Cloak of the Walking Wounded and Dwarven Armor to max out my ability to surge in a given encounter but I wasn't doing nearly as much damage as the Deva Avenger.

There's something to be said about the design of 4e that no matter how hard you min max something, other players in different roles will do things better than you do, so it is difficult to be a one-man party.

What you were never threatened but didnt feel overpowered.
Of course you didnt, more like invincible / untouchable

 

[Aulirophile]

Why would you be a fighter now ?

Let us back up a second. I love Wardens. They are probably my favorite class in 4e, having played all of them barring PHB3 classes (well, Runepriest). The Fighter is, hands down imo, the best designed class in 4e and the best Defender by a large margin (I don't think that part is up for debate). There is basically not a single Warden build optimized for defending (be that through stickiness, a really dangerous Mark, battlefield control, etc.,) that does not MC into Fighter for Fighter specific Feats/PPs/EDs, though I concede a Striker-ish one would MC into Barbarian. The reverse is not true, the Fighter does not have to MC at all to be optimized. Though if you are going to make a high control BRV Fighter, MCing Warden for Crippling Crush is a good option, I admit it (and arguably better for the Fighter then it is for the Warden).

I'm willing to back that up, as well. Anyone can post a Warden build. I will post a Fighter build that does everything that Warden build does, only better (damage, defendering, defenses, battlefield control, mobility, you name it). This is a game, there is always going to be a best. Not most fun, or most flavorful, or even most liked, but the best at doing a job.

@Ourchair: You played a Warden with Dwarven Armor?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.

I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.

WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.

W/o knowing the other chars and their builds in addition to the warden's build your statement proves nothing. Additionally, player skills (system mastery/tactics/...) are important as well, it's critical to know when to use some powers to get maximum effect.

And I agree with most of the enworlders here that one good/powerful warden build =/= wardens are overpowered.