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So, how many are avoiding Essentials?

Tony Vargas

Legend
I've noticed all the Essentials threads on here and I am wondering how many of us are still playing ordinary 4th Ed with no intention of going over.
My gaming group is sticking with 4e. Part of the reason is that several of them are only just getting into it. There's so much material we haven't even touched yet that it'll be years before we notice the 'lack of support.'

Personally, I haven't been sold on Essentials, and have yet to buy any Essentials books. I am trying it out at D&D Encounters, though, and it's not as bad as 3.5 or Spawn of Fashan or anything like that. It just hasn't got anything going for it over 4e except power inflation (which I don't tend to care for in the first place), and retro-apeal (which I get by actually playing older games now and then). Once post-Essentials has slogged through the re-print phase, I might consider picking up any genuinely-new material produced. If it doesn't suck, and wouldn't be imbalancing in a 4e game. Which, given the power inflation of Essentials, seems pretty darn unlikely.
 
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Lord Ernie

First Post
Personally, I haven't been sold on Essentials, and have yet to buy any Essentials books. I am trying it out at D&D Encounters, though, and it's not as bad as 3.5 or Spawn of Fashan or anything like that. It just hasn't got anything going for it over 4e except power inflation (which I don't tend to care for in the first place), and retro-apeal (which I get by actually playing older games now and then). Once post-Essentials has slogged through the re-print phase, I might consider picking up any genuinely-new material produced. If it doesn't suck, and wouldn't be imbalancing in a 4e game. Which, given the power inflation of Essentials, seems pretty darn unlikely.
Note that this also might warrant a different thread, but I'm wondering what you feel has so much power inflation in Essentials that it makes it actually imbalancing when compared to the rest of the game. The new builds? The new feats?
 

Walking Dad

First Post
Asking "Who is switching to/avoiding switching to Essentials?" is about the same as asking, "Who is switching to/not switching to Martial Power?"

Were there more (rules) changes between 3.0 and 3.5 or between 4e and Essentials?

And you can argue hat 3.5 was no new addition, as it was advertised as 90% compatible with the old splat books (the Forgotten Realms Setting, for example, got no 3.5 version, but the changes were included in the FR Player's Handbook).

So, was it back then ok to ask if one switched to 3.5 or not?
 

Lord Ernie

First Post
Were there more (rules) changes between 3.0 and 3.5 or between 4e and Essentials?

And you can argue hat 3.5 was no new addition, as it was advertised as 90% compatible with the old splat books (the Forgotten Realms Setting, for example, got no 3.5 version, but the changes were included in the FR Player's Handbook).

So, was it back then ok to ask if one switched to 3.5 or not?
Not to drag out this debate again, but besides some general rules revisions, most of Essentials didn't change the existing classes, powers, feats, or any game-central systems nearly as much as the 3.0->3.5 transition. The only real exception I can see is the change to the Rogue's sneak attack, some changes to existing defense-boosting feats so they don't suck in comparison to the Essentials ones, and updates to a bunch of existing Wizard powers. If I'm missing any, feel free to point them out.

The reasons behind these changes are sometimes obvious, sometimes not. I reckon Sneak Attack got changed to eliminate the need for having to remember whether your rogue/thief dealt sneak attack damage yet that round. The reason Warlocks and Rangers don't follow suit, is that the Essentials versions use different striker mechanics, so they're not updated. This may or may not change when they re-release the other classes in Essentials format early next year. I already mentioned why the defense feats were changed. As to the changes to Wizard powers: I have no real clue, yet. Maybe miss effects will become a controller shtick? We'll see.

However, none of the classes suddenly had a different number of skills or HP allotment (among others, ranger + bard in 3.5), there were no changes to the vulnerability mechanics any more than they already changed with the rest of the updates (compared to DR changes in 3.5), etc. The difference may be subtle to some, but I believe it's there.

And seriously, it can be argued that with the constant stream of updates/errata, 4.5 has come and gone, along with 4.1, 4.2,... since every rules update ever has changed some aspect of the game.

Comparing the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 to Essentials makes no sense, either way: either the updates don't count as enough of a revision to warrant this comparison, but then Essentials doesn't either, since it changes no more core mechanics than the updates did; or the updates already did enough to warrant this comparison, in which case the question is: why all the noise over the changes in Essentials?
 


Walking Dad

First Post
Classes that can suddenly fill other roles:
Fighter, Ranger, Druid

Multi power source classes!

Multi role classes!

Different starting proficiencies (cleric vs warpriest)

---

Add all the slow changes they made in preparation of essentials (like many people pointed out they made in 3.5 with sourcebooks like 'Tome of Battle'), like being able to choose between race ability bonuses.

Yes, many things are listed as options, but like many of the new feats, showing a better, more supported option (nerf to the feat that allows to change the ability used for melee basic attacks -> new classes get it as class ability; new expertise feats) is also a slow replacement.
See also the fluff support between standard infernal warlocks and infernal hexblades with their 'iconic' race: The new tiefling can get 'perfect' stats for the essential variant, but not the old 4e.

And I'm fine with it. I'm not fine with people who treat other like being dumb for comparing essentials with a revised edition. It is to similar.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
4e and essentials is all the same rules. It's all 4e.
Runequest 2 is the same as Call of Cthulhu, because both are based on the BRP rules?

And no, when I look in my hardcover 4e Player's handbook, it seems different to the Heroes of the Fallen lands book. 'Errating' older books to a new version is IMHO a revision.
 

Raikun

First Post
The 4e PHB with current errata = essentials with current errata. It's all the same rules, the 4e PHB is simply out of date.

That's why the new Rules Compendium rocks right now even if you don't use any other essentials stuff - it's all the original 4e rules brought up to date.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
The 4e PHB with current errata = essentials with current errata. It's all the same rules, the 4e PHB is simply out of date.

That's why the new Rules Compendium rocks right now even if you don't use any other essentials stuff - it's all the original 4e rules brought up to date.

You know why companies do revised and new editions... because the old product was out of date...

And the new Rules Compendium will 'rock' for 3-4 months. Then were will be errata for it. If you want to stay current and say you use the old, but errated rules, you need DDI.

(Sarcasm, don't take serious: Look, it is still D&D 1st! Fighter, cleric, str, wis... magic missle all there! Nice they got the rules errated.)

What is the difference between RPG editions that don't change the background? More current and updated rules.

And I'm not saying 'Essentials is 5e!'.

It is more like Diablo 2 plus LoD than Diablo 3.
 

Lord Ernie

First Post
Classes that can suddenly fill other roles:
Fighter, Ranger, Druid
Eh. That doesn't change existing rangers, druids, or fighters in any way, shape, or form. Yeah, they added new builds for these classes that actually fill different roles. But that still falls under options, not changing the existing gameplay.

Multi power source classes!

Multi role classes!
I'll give you these, but it's not like these are OMG things. It opens up some options for the new builds (like taking Second Skin for Something | Primal classes), but beyond that... eh. Power Sources mostly function as window dressing, anyway.

Different starting proficiencies (cleric vs warpriest)
Different proficiencies for different builds is nothing new. The Warlord can give up certain proficiencies for Archer Warlord, the Fighter has the Arena Training (more proficiencies) option, and Ruthless Ruffian rogues gain mace and club proficiencies (and sneak attack).

In other words, nothing new.

Add all the slow changes they made in preparation of essentials (like many people pointed out they made in 3.5 with sourcebooks like 'Tome of Battle'), like being able to choose between race ability bonuses.
I had missed the ability score changes, but to say these were made 'in preparation for' Essentials is slightly disingenuous. The first versatile stats were those of the Changeling, introduced way back in the EPG.

Also, note that all these changes made sure that the old stat arrays were still perfectly legal, meaning that while some of your old characters might not have optimal choices anymore (Elven Wizards, Dwarven Fighters, etc.), they still work.

Yes, many things are listed as options, but like many of the new feats, showing a better, more supported option (nerf to the feat that allows to change the ability used for melee basic attacks -> new classes get it as class ability; new expertise feats) is also a slow replacement.
The nerf to Melee Training is because of the Knight and the Slayer, so they couldn't take one feat to drastically change their class balance. The Thief and the Scout do not have this problem, since they were build with Dexterity as primary statistic in mind (neither adds it as a static bonus to damage rolls, for instance).

See also the fluff support between standard infernal warlocks and infernal hexblades with their 'iconic' race: The new tiefling can get 'perfect' stats for the essential variant, but not the old 4e.
While I, too, would've liked to see an Int/Con race, and the Tiefling looked like a good fit, they already have the feat support to be very capable Infernal Warlocks, and refitting the Warlock to a class with one single central attribute is much better from a design standpoint.

And I'm fine with it. I'm not fine with people who treat other like being dumb for comparing essentials with a revised edition. It is to similar.
I disagree. I think the idea of '4.X' edition is, to state it lamely, 'so last decade'. With the constant stream of updates and errata, the rules are almost in a permanent state of flux, albeit with a rather stable central core. If Essentials is 4.5, then every update from release date until now was some version of 4.XY, with X < 5.

Whether or not you like this constant change, is of course entirely up to you.

EDIT: Addition:
It is more like Diablo 2 plus LoD than Diablo 3.
For some reason, I actually really like this comparison. LoD followed a stream of patches that fixed bugs, and while it fixed more bugs by itself, but provided mostly added options and possibilities that don't invalidate old characters. Well done :).
 
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