D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Rouge Grendiner?

[TanisFrey]

The Rogue has some way of increasing the liquid's damage, though. It's up to each individual group to come up with a flavor reason for this, but the rules seem pretty clear to me. Obviously, the Rogue hits just the flammable spot ("go for the beard!"), or propels the flask so most of the liquid splashes in one direction, or everybody else just throws grenade-like stuff at people's feet instead of directly at their body, or whatever. "Makes no sense" is really not an impressive argument in a fantasy game.

The pint of ale, by the way, would deal more damage in the hands of a Rogue (if it deals damage at all, that is).

The Rogue takes his time to target the face or joint or other weak spot to do lots of time. So he does extra damage with he hits and attacks less (reflected in his BAB) often than the fighter.

The fighter relies on hitting harder and more frequently than the rogue. Thus, his higher BAB that can be used on PA and greater number of number of attacks per round than a rogue.

Bad 2nd & 3rd degree Burns are said to be one of the most painful injuries you can suffer. Every time someone flexes that joint will feel it. Remember Hit Points represent both your ability to take damage and your ability to avoid and ignore physical damage.

How does weapon specialisation allow a fighter to deal more damage with throwing acid?

Simply apply the same logic to sneak attack.

The fighter who takes weapon focus (acid flask) and then weapon specialization (acid flask) has learned how to throw the flask with more momentum and better aim than others. The container of the acid flask does more damage on impact than someone without the two feats.

There my justification of the RAW rules allowing you to apply sneak attack and weapon specialization to these grenade-like weapons.

 

[TanisFrey]

Balance isn't the issue. The rogue is better off using a longbow at 30' with elemental arrows/enhancement qualities, and that is a permanent solution instead of a temporary one.

To comes down to a using a cheaper attack at FULL AC using a flaming +1 bow verses throwing at Acid Flask at TOUCH AC.

The Bow costs you 8,000 GP up front plus 5 CP per attack.

The Alchemist Fire cost you 20 GP per attack.

Over 20 level the bow will be cheaper to use but you will hit with the acid flask more often.

It ends up being a choice for the Rogue, cheep in the long run or going the expensive route, probably doing more damage and becoming known as a fire bug.

 

[Sekhmet]

The Rogue takes his time to target the face or joint or other weak spot to do lots of time. So he does extra damage with he hits and attacks less (reflected in his BAB) often than the fighter.

The fighter relies on hitting harder and more frequently than the rogue. Thus, his higher BAB that can be used on PA and greater number of number of attacks per round than a rogue.

The point stands that it is still a mug of ale, and that the liquid deals no damage regularly. However, following the same logic that allows the Alchemist's Fire to deal SA damage, if a level 20 Rogue splashes ale on a peasant/commoner/noble/king/standard NPC, that NPC would die with no save.

The fighter who takes weapon focus (acid flask) and then weapon specialization (acid flask) has learned how to throw the flask with more momentum and better aim than others. The container of the acid flask does more damage on impact than someone without the two feats.

There my justification of the RAW rules allowing you to apply sneak attack and weapon specialization to these grenade-like weapons.

An additional 1 point of (nonlethal) damage from the force of a throw could make sense. An additional 10d6 never makes sense.

 

[Greenfield]

First, talk to your DM. He/She is the one to make the final ruling on what flies in the game, not us.

That being said, my own first reaction is to say no.

A caster can Crit with ray attacks, but not area effects. I'd be tempted to follow the spirit of that distinction when it came to hurled weapons. You can crit with a thrown dagger, you can SA with a thrown dagger. You can crit and SA with all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but it's hard to rationalize a precision strike with grenade-like weapons.

Now, presuming it's allowed by the DM, you face a few issues. That you're far too likely to do splash damage to your own allies comes to mind. That your ammunition will be a serious ongoing expense comes to mind.

That you'll be burning and destroying treasure the enemy is carrying is a big one. I know a lot of games where the Sunder feat is never seen, simply because nobody wants to break the Black Knight's "Blade of Hate" (pat. pending), they want to claim it in the next treasure pick.

What you're proposing would provoke the same outrage on the part of your fellow players. You're merrily playing the "mad bomber", and they're watching treasure maps, potions, scrolls, wands, staves, and magical clothing go up in smoke, battle after battle.

Technically it might fly. Tactically, maybe not.

 

[TanisFrey]

First, talk to your DM. He/She is the one to make the final ruling on what flies in the game, not us.

That being said, my own first reaction is to say no.

A caster can Crit with ray attacks, but not area effects. I'd be tempted to follow the spirit of that distinction when it came to hurled weapons. You can crit with a thrown dagger, you can SA with a thrown dagger. You can crit and SA with all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but it's hard to rationalize a precision strike with grenade-like weapons.

Now, presuming it's allowed by the DM, you face a few issues. That you're far too likely to do splash damage to your own allies comes to mind. That your ammunition will be a serious ongoing expense comes to mind.

That you'll be burning and destroying treasure the enemy is carrying is a big one. I know a lot of games where the Sunder feat is never seen, simply because nobody wants to break the Black Knight's "Blade of Hate" (pat. pending), they want to claim it in the next treasure pick.

What you're proposing would provoke the same outrage on the part of your fellow players. You're merrily playing the "mad bomber", and they're watching treasure maps, potions, scrolls, wands, staves, and magical clothing go up in smoke, battle after battle.

Technically it might fly. Tactically, maybe not.

There is no saving throw on Acid Flask, Burning Oil Flask or Alchemist Fire, so there is no worry about loosing gear to their use. The wizard throwing fireball is more likely to destroy gear if the rule for secondary save for gear is used. It is often not used by players or DM. It existed in 1st, 2ed and Basic and not used all the time then either.

Cost: I am playing to control this by taking 2 levels of Warmage and Maxing the PC ranks of Craft: Alchemy. This will reduce the cost by half, I think.

 

[TanisFrey]

The point stands that it is still a mug of ale, and that the liquid deals no damage regularly. However, following the same logic that allows the Alchemist's Fire to deal SA damage, if a level 20 Rogue splashes ale on a peasant/commoner/noble/king/standard NPC, that NPC would die with no save.

An additional 1 point of (nonlethal) damage from the force of a throw could make sense. An additional 10d6 never makes sense.

A well built 20th level fighter can punch a low level peasant/commoner/noble/king/standard NPC and kill them with non-lethal damage. That would be 1d3 + (4-8) of str + (10-15) of PA times 4. That 15 to 104 non-lethal damage in a round.

Saying no to something because at 20th level you think it is overpowered is BS. Any well build 20th level PC can kill that low level NPC with ease. Looking in the PBH we have:
Barbaran will use a rage fueled Power Attack and do even more damage than the fighter
Bard will make a slave out of them with bardic music and he could include the rest of the town in the process.
Cleric will Energy Drain, Implosion or Miracle them to death and prevent them from being raised with Soul Bind.
Druid will sick a Elemental swarm on them
I gave you fighter before.
Monk just needs to flurry of blows and deal between 5 to 100 points of damage and stun them.
Paladin will replicate what the fighter did.
Ranger will stick 4 arrows into them from the 5 or 6 range category.
Rogue dagger will dart out of a shadow before anyone will realize that they are there.
Sorcerer and Wizard will time stop and have 2 to 5 spells flying at them.

Unless the 20th level rogue throws the mug, the beer will just get the other person in a barroom brawl wet. The mug on the other hand will hurt as an improvised weapon.

You have to throw the acid flask to do a full die of damage. Just splashing will only do 1 point of damage, no possibility of SA or weapon specialization.

 

[Sekhmet]

You're almost grasping the point, and you're defending it in your post adequately. I'm going to break down what you just said.

It is the projectile, not the liquid itself that deals SA damage.

A glass flask shatters on impact. There is no possibility for kinetic energy to transfer beyond a very limited amount when this happens. The energy dissipates with the breaking of the flask, and is not transfered to the target.
A solid stein would sustain the kinetic energy, because it is not fragile enough to break, and therefor deal regular damage. It would not, however, deal SA damage -> only the Sap/Blackjack can deal non-lethal SA.


As for the bar fight situation, it was an example of how the liquid is not dealing the SA damage, it is the projectile itself, to which you agreed in your counter argument.

 

[TanisFrey]

Sorry I was a little pissy when I wrote my last post and did not do the argument justice.

In D&D most combatants in a fight just try to hit their opponent. They try to either hit harder and more frequently or they use magic to kill the opponent.

The rangers/swashbucklers/rogue/ninja/scout and PRC that give SA don't try to hit their opponent harder and more frequently. They look for the most opportune time to strike a soft spot to maximize the damage they do. Rangers do this through study of a race or group of similar monsters, Favored Enemy feature. Swashbucklers learn the general spots to strike at in all opponents, Insightful Strike feature. Rogues/Ninjas/Scouts/(plus any PRC with SA) wait or create an opportune to strike at a distracted opponent, Sneak attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish features.

Just splashing acid or alchemist fire or other liquid does not let you time things well. No one bothers to practices splashing a liquid. Why? You cannot a constant amount to go in a single direction and at a single speed to ensure that it all lands in you desired spot on time. It is a desperation move or a mistake (you missed with the flask).

Place all that nasty liquid in a flask and throwing allows you to get it all in one spot at one time. This allows you to meet your requirement apply extra damage to the distracted opponent. Sure, it then splashes all over the place, but you put it in weak spot to do the maximum amount of damage to you primary target. Therefore you get you Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish damage.

 

[TanisFrey]

Here is the build I am sending to my DM for approval.

Name: Boldor Tinka
Alignment: Chaotic Good (leaning towards neutral)
Race: Human
Classes: Rouge 4/Warmage 2/Swashbuckler 3
Hitpoints: yet to be rolled
Stats (no item modifiers included, point buy from DMG p 169 but with 36 points, this is standard for our group)
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 12

Fort 6 = 4 + 2
Ref 7 = 5 + 2
Will 5 = 5 + 0
BAB +6/+1

Feats:
H*) Able Learner
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Precise Shot
5) Grenadier
SB) Weapon Finess
9) Daring Outlaw

Skills: Ranks only
Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Disable Device, Listen, Open Locks, Profession (Brewer), Search all at 12 ranks each
Spot at 11 ranks
Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Tumble, Use Rope all at 5 ranks each
Knowledge (Arcana) at 3 ranks
Swim at 1 rank

Items/Magic Items
Chain Shirt +3
Kukri +1
Rapier +1
Gloves of Dex +2
Amulet of Health +2
Headband of Intellect +2
Heward's Handy Haversack
Ring of Protection +1
Alchemist Lab
Acid Flask x30
Alchemist Fire x30
Holy Water Flask x10
Tangle Foot Bag x10
Thunderstone x10
Sunrod x10
Tindertwig x 50
Smokestick x10
Antitoxin x5
Thieves' Tools, Masterwork
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds x4
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds x2

GP left 1472

Does anyone know what book Masterwork Potion Bandoleer is in? I do not remember and would like to get some with for the character.

Advancement: 1 additional level of warmage then Swashbuckler to 20. He will at some point get Craft Wondrous Item and research a way to make his Lesser Orbs into a grenade-like weapon for when he needs something other the fire or acid and is out of spells. With his INT Swashbuckler covers all the skills I want at max (every thing at 12 or 11 ranks) plus some to invest in Knowledge (Arcana) he will need to research this item creation.

Background: He was born to one of the River Gypsy that ply the rivers of World of Greyhawk. Boldor was trained my his mother to make alchemical items to be sold in the various cities and towns they passed trough. Ture to form many were just colored water. He was struck with wonder lust to see the world beyond the rivers. While in Verbobonc he impressed one of the local warmages by using his intellect to get himself out of a bad deal. The warmage offered to train him in magic, Boldor jumped at the deal. Little did he realize that this almost would lock him into the army. He soon realized that the extravagant swordplay that the some of the warriors in camp was more his style. He payed so much to the sweeping swordplay that the warmage kicked him out. Jobless he accepted a post as an alchemist for some remote temple worshiping elements. He arrived and started to make Acid flasks and Alchemist for the Temple of Fire. Soon he learned that they were at war with the temples of Air, Earth and Water and that the actual priests were evil, twisted people whom he did not want to work for. One night while the High Priestess of Fire was occupied with preparing the temples defenses against some hero that were had wiped out the Earth and Air temples and were heading this way. He packed up his supplies and slipped our to find and join these heros against the vile Temples of Elemental Evil.

Yes, we are playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and I am coming him a storyline for him to be inserted into the party mid-dungeon.

 

[TanisFrey]

Based on this build, I realize that the PC tactics will be based on opponent's size. Medium or smaller opponents will get him to rely on spells, and Larger opponents will get him to use the alchemical items.

The reason is simple, when in position to sneak attack a larger opponent he can do primary damage with sneak attack and do some additional splash damage without risking his allies. While with medium opponents, spells will allow him to SA without risking his allies.