Rule of Three finally addresses an important epic tier question!

[the Jester]

Well, here's the other way of looking at it. DMs and players who want and already do play Epic Tier are the hardest of hardcore D&Ders. They know how difficult it is to play at that level, how much stuff there is to keep track of, and how grand of a scale things have to be for it to be effective.

At that point... those hardcore D&D players are usually (again, I say usually, not always) ones who create things for themselves.

Speaking as one of those dms who is both hardcore as hardcore gets and is eager to run some epic 4e, I have to say, I'd buy a DMG3 focused on epic or a monster book focused on epic or whatever in half a second.

I'm a strong proponent of homebrewed stuff- half the pcs in my game can't use the CB at all due to the amount of homebrewed stuff they have on their sheet- but I'd love love LOVE to see more epic support.

 

[renau1g]

Bale and Ren... I agree that the actual game mechanics of Epic are probably no more (or at least not appreciably so) difficult than Paragon Tier. But there is one place where Epic *IS* more difficult... and that is Story.

We're talking a tier here where the PCs are on epic journeys to fulfill their destinies... destinies that will send them into the annals of history. Now what does that require? Stories and plot custom-tailored to those PCs. The stories are now about them fulfilling their destinies, while at the same time dealing with some massive over-arching McGuffin (whether that be gods, demons, wars across the cosmos etc. etc.) These are much grander and much more grandiose than just "hey, this troll nation has risen over the mountains... go get a bunch of people together and go wipe them out!"

Now to pull this sort of massive epic tale... as a DM you need to be very, very good at what you do. Much better than just reading a section in a DMG and then winging it. And as I said above... if creating an Epic tale is within your skill-set and something you want to do for your campaign... you probably don't need any material WotC might provide in order to pull it off.

And if you AREN'T that good of a DM, where creating these epic tales is too daunting for you... there is no reason why you just couldn't stick with Heroic or Paragon. It gains you nothing to run an Epic Tier game that doesn't feel epic. Who is going to do that to themselves? Even *IF* you got additional hand-holding via a DMG3, epic tier monster book, and a few modules? In the long run... it probably isn't worth it to most players (or at least enough players to make it worthwhile to actually produce the content.)

It's not just the epic tales that's the problem, there's tons of tools missing from the toolbox of a DM for Epic levels. Lack of threats (both monsters, environmental challenges, and traps) are one big issue. I know I've read through Monster Manual X and been inspired by something I found there.

My comment is that it may be worth it to them to consider because if you keep people invested longer, they're less likely to look at alternatives (whether that's other systems, video games, movies, etc) and (likely) on the ddi pay train for a while longer.

 

[Riastlin]

Assuming you're going the whole ten levels, then the theme of an epic campaign can include

1- preparing to save creation - getting the ancient divine artifacts, blessings of gods, etc, nessisary to defeat an evil divine creature or break the seals protecting the demon lord
2- getting noticed by said evil, having him send his best, most trusted liutenants and generals after you
3- breaking through various astral and devil/demon dominions

Aye, each adventure does not necessarily in and of itself have to result in the saving of creation (or the cosmos) or whatever, but the story of the epic tier results in the saving of creation (or a major deity, or whatever).

As an example: In heroic tier you take on the cult that is threatening to overthrow the kingdom. In paragon tier you stop Orcus from unleashing his demon allies upon the world. In epic tier, you take the fight to Orcus and eventually defeat him, perhaps even saving the Raven Queen in the process.

At Defcon: The problem with your approach though is that it borders on "If you are not already a great DM, don't bother." I have a real problem with this kind of outlook personally. I already know a number of players who refused to try to DM prior to 4th Ed. because it was "too hard". At least some of them are trying it now. But to come out and say "Well, we are not going to offer much help because, frankly, you need to already be great, in which case you don't need us." really sends us backward in my opinion.

Now, that being said, I don't think we necessarily need an entire book devoted to Epic Tier monsters, but more monsters (particularly non-elite/solos) would be great. A DMG 3 that offers advice on the types of stories that work well in epic tier would be great, or even with advice on designing epic tier encounters (how hard can you hit epic tier PCs?). I agree that it should not necessarily be a focus for WotC, but there should be something there. IIRC, 4ed is also the first edition that was really up front about expecting PCs to go to epic whereas prior editions it was seen as an add-on type thing. I think this is a big reason why even experienced DMs are struggling with Epic because it is expected that PCs would eventually get there, but there is so little support for the DM when they do.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The problem with your approach though is that it borders on "If you are not already a great DM, don't bother." I have a real problem with this kind of outlook personally. I already know a number of players who refused to try to DM prior to 4th Ed. because it was "too hard". At least some of them are trying it now. But to come out and say "Well, we are not going to offer much help because, frankly, you need to already be great, in which case you don't need us." really sends us backward in my opinion.

It's not that I think WotC is telling players "Don't bother"... I suspect it's the players telling WotC "Don't bother."

WotC probably has the metrics. They probably know how the E1-3 modules did compared to H1-3 and P1-3. They probably know how many times the epic level modules in Dungeon were downloaded compared to others. They probably know how the Tomb of Horrors book did (which included some low-level epic.) They probably know how many article proposals they receive for Dungeon and Dragon that involve Epic Tier play. They probably have a good idea the number of email and letter requests they get asking for Epic material compared to Heroic and Paragon.

As much as some people would snarkily say otherwise... I imagine WotC probably has a pretty good idea what people want from them. And what they've produced up to this point could be an indication of that. If they aren't producing more Epic stuff... it's because the stuff they HAVE produced hasn't been wanted by enough people to generate the volume needed to make more.

And sure... there will ALWAYS be a thread here on ENWorld where someone will post "I want more Epic Tier stuff" and there being six other posters right behind saying "Me too!"... but I would not take these seven voices to be any sort of an actual indication, or have any more weight than whatever metrics WotC already has taken from all their previous products.

If people wanted Epic Tier material, Wizards would produce Epic Tier material. To believe otherwise is to believe the people at Wizards are complete idiots who have no idea where their money comes from and everything they've accomplished with the D&D brand has been entirely just dumb luck. And I know *I* would in no way insult them like that, because I know that is just plain not true.

 

[Riastlin]

Snip.

Oh I understand what you are saying. I agree that there are a lot of hard core players who probably do design a lot of their own stuff for epic tier, particularly adventures. I'm not sure though that those same players are creating everything on their own (i.e. creatures, terrain features, traps, etc.).

More to the point though, I think what I was trying to say is that while truly hard core DMs and players will usually come up with their own stuff (though even hard core DMs get inspired by printed materials), its the more casual DM's and players who are going to miss out on epic tier without any support. One of the reasons we're seeing largely hardcore DMs running epic is because of the lack of support. A more casual DM is going to be out of his or her element because there isn't much guidance unless they are fortunate enough to have somebody helping them. This is where I believe WotC could really strike gold with more support. Move some of these more casual players into the epic tier and let them see how truly awesome an epic tier campaign could be. But without much support, its unlikely they'll go there.

This is why epic monsters in a Monster Manual can help even if the entire manual is not devoted to epic monsters. Even if a quarter of a MM were devoted to epic monsters (especially standards) that would be a huge improvement. Same thing goes for the DMG 3 (or whatever they choose to call it). DMG 2 is useful to all DMs, not just those running paragon campaigns, but for those that do run paragon campaigns, it offers some extra candy.

I will confess that epic tier adventures are perhaps a bit more problematic. I think WotC is right in concentrating more on heroic tier as its more likely that by the time a DM gets his group up into paragon and even epic tier that he or she will be more comfortable crafting his own adventure. Obviously WotC knows better than us how many proposals for epic tier adventures they get, but even that could get influenced by their publishing habits. If writers see a perceived focus on heroic tier mods, then in order to get published they are more likely to focus their efforts on heroic tier mods. I don't think WotC should publish an equal number of mods for each tier. I agree that heroic probably deserves the most attention, but there needs to be some attention paid to epic tier even if its just 1 in 10 or so. Even the hardcore DMs out there will occasionally get inspired by a published mod, or need something to fill a gap during a bad bout of writer's block. Giving us 2/3 of a delve though doesn't exactly help. It is some help, but not quite as much as is really needed imho.

 

[webrunner]

A variant "start at epic tier" rule would also be a good idea.. starting a level 21 character yoou have SO many sheets and powers, remembering it all and figuring it out would be a nightmare.

I dunno how to solve it (start at 11 and do 1-2 level per fight up to level 21? Start with easy fights and gain class features/powers as you go?) but it's got to be part of the issue.

 

[Stoat]

To enlarge on Defcon's point that "epic PC's are on epic journeys to fulfill their destinies... destinies that will send them into the annals of history."

Part of what this means is that epic adventures need to be more closely tailored to the PC's than lower-tiered adventures.

Imagine a party of 21st level characters consisting of a Cleric of Ioun, a wizard who worships Ioun, a paladin of Erathis, an avenger who worships Erathis and a rogue who pays lip service to Pelor. These PC's hit E1 and learn that the Raven Queen needs their help in an epic battle against Orcus. Or they hit the epic tier of Scales of War and start helping Bahamut do his thing. Why? These guys need an epic adventure focused on Hestavar, Ioun, Erathis and Pelor.

I think its a lot easier to write a good "generic" adventure for the heroic tier. I think its more difficult to do that for the paragron tier. I don't think epic adventures should be generic at all. They should deal with the specific goals of the individual PC's as those PC's work toward their Epic Destinies.

 

[DEFCON 1]

More to the point though, I think what I was trying to say is that while truly hard core DMs and players will usually come up with their own stuff (though even hard core DMs get inspired by printed materials), its the more casual DM's and players who are going to miss out on epic tier without any support.

Whereas I believe the more likely scenario is that casual players and DMs just DON'T WANT to run Epic, regardless of the support available or not.

Some of that I'm sure is partly due to what several others above have said... that Epic Level play had been relegated to an optional add-on for so many years (DM Option: High-Level Campaigns, Epic Level Handbook) that most people just aren't used to think of epic level gaming as part of the so-called "core" experience. And without details like a DMG3 to go over why Epic Tier adventuring is feasible and interesting, people just don't even think about it.

But on the other hand... you really have to ask yourself what Epic Tier has that the other two tiers DON'T have, which would necessitate most casual gamers' need to actually play it? And it's my contention that unless a DM has a story that is plane-spanning and demon & god related... there is nothing about Epic that would inspire other people to play it. And this is true EVEN IF there were monsters, modules, and instructions on how to do it. It begins and ends with story. If there's no compelling story to carry you through Epic... there's no reason to play Epic games. And if there's no reason to play Epic games, there's no reason for WotC to spend precious manhours and resources to produce material for it, nor a reason to purchase the article premise of some freelancer who might want to write about it (assuming of course there are freelancers who actually are submitting articles about it, which for all we know, isn't happening either.)

 

[Incenjucar]

I wonder if it would be possible for WotC to release an Epic-feeling board game... it might make people more comfortable with and interested in Epic.

 

[JoeGKushner]

They should have just said the old classic and truism. It wouldn't sell enough and we are now in a lock and load mode where every product we even think about must deliver above and beyond what it should killing any fringe style products that we might once have brought out.