Rule of Three finally addresses an important epic tier question!

[DEFCON 1]

Well, here's the other way of looking at it. DMs and players who want and already do play Epic Tier are the hardest of hardcore D&Ders. They know how difficult it is to play at that level, how much stuff there is to keep track of, and how grand of a scale things have to be for it to be effective.

At that point... those hardcore D&D players are usually (again, I say usually, not always) ones who create things for themselves. They have grand campaigns, grand storylines, and extremely strong abilities to create, work, and tweak the game as they see fit to pull Epic Tier off. They're the best of the best. As a result, it's these people who are less likely to need epic monsters or epic modules, because they're comfortable just creating what they need, when they need it (and are probably doing this all the time anyway.)

A DMG3 for instructions on "how to run epic tier", or a monster book full of rank 'n file epic monsters, or a series of standalone epic tier modules are all products that your casual D&D player would be more prone to pick up, not your hardcore. But a casual D&Der is less likely to play Epic (even with a DMG3, monster book and modules at their disposal) just because there's much more work to run it for very little additional payoff over Heroic or Paragon Tier. So those people are less likely to buy these kind of products even if they existed. I guess the chicken/egg situation kind of applies here... but in my opinion really doesn't matter much in the long view. Epic Tier is just not important enough for a casual player or DM to their spend money on.

And your hardcore players more often than not already create much of what they need on their own. They don't need "help" per se from WotC. Or more to the point... don't need it often enough that their few purchases would bring in enough money to make it worthwhile for WotC to spend time and money producing them. Sure, the occasional DM might grab an Epic module for a few ideas... but most of them wouldn't run entire Epic Tier games using nothing but official WotC products (which I imagine you'd NEED to have happen to sell enough of these products for WotC to justify creating them in the first place.)

Maybe I'm wrong here... but I do think the circle of potential customers for additional Epic Tier content is smaller than we think.

 

[Shroomy]

Really it boils down to the chicken and the egg with them.

Well...nobody's playing Epic (or Runepriests or Seekers, etc) so we can't waste our design resources on such a niche part of the game, especially when we know it'll be so hard to do. But not many groups play epic because there's so little official support for it from WotC, and it's very hard conceptually to come up with adventures, challenges, fluff, etc for an Epic adventure...and the cycle continues.

If they don't produce it, people won't play it, it's pretty simple.

I don't think this is necessarily correct. While I'm sure the level of support has something to do with it for at least some groups (and let's not kid ourselves, despite whatever shortfalls we see, there's still plenty of epic-level material in 4e; its probably the edition that best supports this level and type of play), I think the real reason why people don't play as much epic tier D&D (when compared to heroic tier and paragon tier) is because it takes a lot of time to get to that point and most campaigns will break up or peter out before they get there.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Here is the thing.

If in epic tier you are fighting to save creation, either the entire epic tier is a single mega-adventure or the characters have to save all creation every couple of levels which really s up immersion. It becomes like a bad saturday cartoon where the same 5 people save the world again encounters.

I like the idea of epic characters saving the world 5-7 times because they are the only ones who can

 

[Balesir]

Well, here's the other way of looking at it. DMs and players who want and already do play Epic Tier are the hardest of hardcore D&Ders. They know how difficult it is to play at that level, how much stuff there is to keep track of, and how grand of a scale things have to be for it to be effective.

With previous incarnations of D&D I think that was a valid model; with 4e I think it shouldn't be. I say "shouldn't", here, because (a) some people are clearly put off by the Rep. that very high level play has and (b) there is a lack of explanation, support and advice in the D&D books to show prospective Epic DMs that it's no longer the beast it was. But it is no longer such a beast because of the structure of the 4e rules. Epic characters have no more At-Will, Encounter or Daily powers than Paragon ones do. They may still have more Utilities, feats and class abilities, but the core of what they can do in a round (the "action economy") is still mostly intact. Plus, the game is not (supposed to be) as stupid-busted-broken in the balance and capability department as earlier editions were past level 14 or so.

So, in summation, I do think you're wrong, here - but it may take a bit to persuade players and DMs that that is so...

 

[renau1g]

Well, here's the other way of looking at it. DMs and players who want and already do play Epic Tier are the hardest of hardcore D&Ders. They know how difficult it is to play at that level, how much stuff there is to keep track of, and how grand of a scale things have to be for it to be effective.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Yes the hard hardcores of hardcoretown are the ones playing because it's a PITA to play, or at least that's the impression based on the past editions of the game. If they were to product that assisted those less than hardcore run it, they'd be more likely to run it.

I know I'm one of them.

Instead of Chicken or the Egg, how about the Field of Dreams then...

If you build it, they will come... or if you make it, they will play...

If they want to expand their market to keep the less hardcore involved in the campaign longer and provide them with more options (to keep them hooked on the game longer and thus more likely to keep their DDI sub going) you want to entice them to play Epic.

 

[Shroomy]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Yes the hard hardcores of hardcoretown are the ones playing because it's a PITA to play, or at least that's the impression based on the past editions of the game. If they were to product that assisted those less than hardcore run it, they'd be more likely to run it.

I know I'm one of them.

Instead of Chicken or the Egg, how about the Field of Dreams then...

If you build it, they will come... or if you make it, they will play...

If they want to expand their market to keep the less hardcore involved in the campaign longer and provide them with more options (to keep them hooked on the game longer and thus more likely to keep their DDI sub going) you want to entice them to play Epic.

I think there would certainly be benefits to increasing epic tier content, however, no matter how much high-level content WotC produces, I honestly believe that heroic and even paragon tier play will always be more popular by a very wide margin. Then it comes down (as Mike Mearls suggests) to using your limited resources most effectively.

 

[Balesir]

I think there would certainly be benefits to increasing epic tier content, however, no matter how much high-level content WotC produces, I honestly believe that heroic and even paragon tier play will always be more popular by a very wide margin. Then it comes down (as Mike Mearls suggests) to using your limited resources most effectively.

Other than the desire to start at level 1 and play through, I can see no a priori reason for that at all. What makes you think it is so?

(Honestly curious, not trying to "prove you wrong" - as if I could!)

 

[DEFCON 1]

Bale and Ren... I agree that the actual game mechanics of Epic are probably no more (or at least not appreciably so) difficult than Paragon Tier. But there is one place where Epic *IS* more difficult... and that is Story.

We're talking a tier here where the PCs are on epic journeys to fulfill their destinies... destinies that will send them into the annals of history. Now what does that require? Stories and plot custom-tailored to those PCs. The stories are now about them fulfilling their destinies, while at the same time dealing with some massive over-arching McGuffin (whether that be gods, demons, wars across the cosmos etc. etc.) These are much grander and much more grandiose than just "hey, this troll nation has risen over the mountains... go get a bunch of people together and go wipe them out!"

Now to pull this sort of massive epic tale... as a DM you need to be very, very good at what you do. Much better than just reading a section in a DMG and then winging it. And as I said above... if creating an Epic tale is within your skill-set and something you want to do for your campaign... you probably don't need any material WotC might provide in order to pull it off.

And if you AREN'T that good of a DM, where creating these epic tales is too daunting for you... there is no reason why you just couldn't stick with Heroic or Paragon. It gains you nothing to run an Epic Tier game that doesn't feel epic. Who is going to do that to themselves? Even *IF* you got additional hand-holding via a DMG3, epic tier monster book, and a few modules? In the long run... it probably isn't worth it to most players (or at least enough players to make it worthwhile to actually produce the content.)

 

[Shroomy]

Other than the desire to start at level 1 and play through, I can see no a priori reason for that at all. What makes you think it is so?

(Honestly curious, not trying to "prove you wrong" - as if I could!)

It is basically the desire to start at level 1 (or at lower-levels in general); since most games will start there, I believe most games won't make it into the epic-tier because it takes too long (I wouldn't be suprised if most high-level play is actually composed of one shots or limited arcs). Its a trend that I've seen in all editions of the game.

 

[ki11erDM]

I have never had any desire to run an epic game in 20 years. Still don’t. But people like you need better support.