Roll dem Bones!

[Thunderfoot]

<SNIP>
A scene that comes to mind is of a Master training his student. Master says "Hit me", and the two face off. Player of student says to DM "I attack!" So should the student actually hit the Master, just because he decides first to attack? My thought is no. The way I'd expect this to play out is that student decides to attack, but both roll for initiative. Mr. Miyagi is so good (high initiative) that he likely "reads" the student's intention in his eyes before the attack even begins, and can land the Karate Kid flat on his tookus before young cricket knows what hit him.
<SNIP>

This is a great example of this principal
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bFfeLY3s64]YouTube - Boot to the head - Frantics - Tae Kwon Leep - TF style[/ame]
.
Please ignore the Transformers it was the best copy I could find without doing one myself..

 

[Dandu]

Perhaps Mr. Miyagi had Robiliar's Gambit active?

 

[PolterGhost]

So, here's the question:

Do you (the DM) make everyone roll initiative right there?

Or, do you automatically give initiative to the Fighter, based on what has occured in the game?

Or, do you consider this a Surprise round, let the Fighter attack, then roll nish for everybody else after the Fighter has gotten off this free attack (and, in this situation, is it fair to give the Fighter a free Surprise round and not just the first attack?)?

How would you handle this as DM?

Remember, often the reverse of this situation is true, as with a party going through an old cavern and having a spider drop down on them.

Nobody expected the fighter to interject his fist into the drunk's face. Hand him a surprise round, then roll initiative if necessary.

....but that's if we're going off of combat rules. You asked what I would do as a DM, yes?

In reality, I would check the level of the Fighter in question and compare it to the Drunkard's (of whose is likely Commoner 1). If it's higher by a significant degree (For a Fighter versus a Commoner 1? I'd say Level 2 if he's got a decent Strength or Dexterity, otherwise 3), I'd just outright say "You flatten the poor sod as you dislodge his teeth with your bare knuckles. You see a few faces glance at you, some glaring, some wincing, some grinning, and then they all return to their business. The drunk mumbles something indecipherable as blood dribbles down his chin."

See, the trick is that there's no reason to turn a small scuffle into a battle with initiative rolls. Chances are pretty good that this Fighter's Strength is at least 15, so he's hitting with around 3-5 damage worth of subdual damage, which is more than enough to either send the drunk flying into a nearby table with a couple hp left, or to outright knock him unconscious. Add in the fact that the Fighter has a pretty good chance to hit the sorry fool and then there's really no need to roll anything. I mean, you can handle a situation with roleplay, not rollplay, right?

Now, if the drunk was really egging him on for some other sort of reason (Oh crap, he's an assassin disguised as a drunk and he has shiv hidden under his arm!) we'd be looking at something entirely different. In this case, give the Fighter a surprise round, then normal initiative rolls for everyone else involved...unless the drunken assassin was already prepared for this, in which case give both the Fighter and the assassin a surprise round (Effectively, they're the only two that act before the actual fight begins), or just say the assassin had a readied action prepared to handle the Fighter foolhardily charging at him. Of course, that's a big giant pile of what ifs we're talking about.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

This is called "Ready Action", as in "I ready for him to reach for his weapon." And, in real life, you have to be hellaquick to outdraw the other guy, even if you're waiting for it.

To ready an action, a character has to have already rolled for initiative, though. From the SRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."

Thus, a PC can't simply say he's arbitrarily readying an action at any old time; he must wait until after his first turn through the initiative stack. On the other hand, he certainly can say he is being vigilant (outside of "combat" when no initiative rolls have been made) and hope the DM rewards him for it in some fashion, perhaps with an initiative bonus, auto-surprise, perception check boost, or whatever.

This is what the RPG gods invented Spot checks for. If the PCs are scouting, you give them a Spot check as they enter. If they're not really paying attention then they get that same Spot check at -5, for being "distracted". (That's according to the RAW.)

This is a nice neutral way to determine who is aware of what, for purposes of establishing "surprise". A clever beasty who has heard the party coming automatically gets to act in the surprise round, because it's aware. Of the PCs, only the ones sharp enough to succeed on their own perception checks get to act in the surprise round. After those checks are rolled and awareness is determined, those who can act in the surprise round roll initiative and their combat plays out; everyone else hops in the following round.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

The problem I have with this approach is that it completely bypasses the advantage of things like Improved Initiative, or even simply higher level.

When everyone is standing about, arguing, thinking, doing anything and everything except just setting to combat then you are willingly sacrificing natural initiative advantages you might have. I'm not talking about kicking in the dungeon door, seeing the orcs, and then the first one at the table to say, "I attack!" wins intiative. This is a particular circumstance we're talking about here and even rolling intiative with extra advantages disregards the circumstances, favoring the rule of Rules rather than what makes more sense. The rules can't and don't cover all circumstances. Q.E.D.

Or think about a western. At high noon, Sheriff Goode and Black Bart square off in the deserted street. Being the good guy, the sheriff refuses to draw first, relying instead on his quick wits (high intiative). He draws only when the bad guy's player says "I attack!" and Black Bart goes for his gun. At that point, roll intiative to see who actually gets their shot off first. The quicker man-- the one with higher initiative-- is likely to win, though not always.

In 3E rules this is represented by the feat Quick Draw. Just having a bonus adjustement to your initiative rolls does NOT mean you always get a CHANCE to act first.

Everything about initiative assumes that everybody involved DOES want to act first. When EVERYONE opts not to act first the rules just don't cover that eventuality. As DM in this situation you have just one way to proceed. If you decide combat has NOT begun (obviously it hasn't if there is no surprise and nobody has rolled initiaitve yet) then you can force the issue - tell everyone to roll intiative and everyone gets their chance to act. If they choose NOT to that's THEIR problem. The first one to DO something effectively sets the top of the initiative order - anyone with initiative bonuses BLEW IT.

All my approach does is save the the repeated run-through of UNEVENTFUL initiative orders and wait for determination of initiative for everyone else until somebody actually takes action.

If someone says, "_I_ will finally take action," in a stand-off situation it sure seems silly to ME to then roll dice to determine the order in which people act and potentially find out that the one who STARTED it - really didn't start it all because he's going last in the order. No, when everyone has had ample opportunity to start the fight and done nothing, then the one to CHOOSE to act is indeed the first to act and everyone else gets to scramble for seconds. The opponent facing the first to act might have quick reflexes but by GIVING UP moment after moment the opportunity to actually attack he gives up the advantage that his reflexes affords. He is WAITING for someone else to act, and NOT acting first because his reactions enable him to act first. Failure to take action when you have MORE than ample opportunity to do so (and that IS what a standoff situation does) has the consequence of losing other advantages you might have had to act first.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Then you just got in one final swing before getting your ass kicked. Unless said SEAL was on a "ready action" for you to do something stupid, you'll probably land the punch.

Navy SEALs get cold-cocked too.

This is called "Ready Action", as in "I ready for him to reach for his weapon." And, in real life, you have to be hellaquick to outdraw the other guy, even if you're waiting for it.

Except that:
"The Ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action." - PH p.160
By the definition given you cannot "Ready" an action outside of actual combat - you have to have had at least one turn because you ready actions AFTER your turn is over, and being a standard action even if you assume that you're Readying on your first turn in open defiance of what it says then you're sacrificing the ability to ATTACK on your first turn by readying to attack on your SECOND turn, yes?

Trust me, you don't want to go there. Readying outside of combat is just asking for all kinds of headaches.

This is what the RPG gods invented Spot checks for. If the PCs are scouting, you give them a Spot check as they enter. If they're not really paying attention then they get that same Spot check at -5, for being "distracted". (That's according to the RAW.)

This is, however, also not the situation under discussion (or at least not the one I've been addressing). When two groups encounter each other and there is a general rush to attack - roll intiative and apply all modifiers. However, when everyone does nothing then you have to think a little deeper to determine what the procedure should be because the RAW just doesn't detail such eventualities.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

When everyone is standing about, arguing, thinking, doing anything and everything except just setting to combat then you are willingly sacrificing natural initiative advantages you might have. I'm not talking about kicking in the dungeon door, seeing the orcs, and then the first one at the table to say, "I attack!" wins intiative. This is a particular circumstance we're talking about here and even rolling intiative with extra advantages disregards the circumstances, favoring the rule of Rules rather than what makes more sense. The rules can't and don't cover all circumstances. Q.E.D.

That all well and good, and I wasn't intending to criticise your ruling. Like I said, I'm not going to argue with my DM on something like this. All I'm saying is that where some see this particular circumstance (the argument in a bar) as a special circumstance falling outside the rules, others see it as a standard fight that falls within the rules as "circumstance" bonuses (thus the circumstances are not being disregarded, fwiw). Different strokes for different folks.

I'm not going to belabor the point, though, because this appears to be devolving into disagreement over individual gamers' base assumptions about human nature, and their respective experiences with certain realworld situations. There are a lot of assumptions in the last few posts I simply disagree on a philosophical level. But that gets way beyond the rules, and I prefer to have those arguments over beer.

 

[Greenfield]

Player to DM: "I want to roll Initiative now, so I can Ready for Black Bart to draw."
DM to Player: "But the combat hasn't started yet?"
Player to DM: "But I'm sure it's going to.", as he rolls his dice.
DM to Player: "He senses the increased tension, and ... ", rolls dice, "his fingers hover near his gun."
Player to DM: "Ready action for him to go for the gun..."

Even if I disagree with the idea that you can't Ready for someone to come in a door, the objections are easily handled using normal mechanics.

The question is, do you dare to Refocus and then Ready? Guarantees top billing in the Initiative order, in case both are Readied.

The real question is, do you always give a surprise round? I don't.

If each group knows the other is there, and knows a fight is brewing, we go straight to initiative. If the situation may or may not escalate to combat then a surprise round is possible.

Odd note: I ran an adventure that included sporting events. One was the 100 yard dash.

PC Barbarian thought he had an edge because of high base movement. And when the starter called, "Ready! Set! Go!", he Readied his action for "Go", to get that starting jump on the others.

He lost the race, of course. The more experienced runners went on Hold action instead. They start the race a heartbeat later, after the word "Go" is said, instead of the middle of the "G", but they get a full action, instead of the partial action the Ready lets you save.

His 40 foot move, on a full run (quad move) would be 160 feet. Their 30 foot move on a run (5x move with the Run feat) would be 150 feet. He should have won the race, but poor tactics cost him.

And, if you do the math, yes, good sprinters in D&D run the 100 yard dash in 12 seconds flat. World class sprinters (Barbarian base + Run feat) do it in 11.25 seconds. Don't you just love it when game rules give real world credible results?

 

[Water Bob]

I can't award surprise in this situation for one simple reason: Awareness. The key requirement for Surprise to occur (at least in my set of rules) is that one side has to be unaware of the other.

Since both the fighter and the jerk are aware of each other, no Surprise round can occur.

 

[IstraRaugir]

Not to rain on your parades...

In this specific situation I would say that the question of wether or not to assign a surprise round in the fighter's favor should be decided by the jerk's ability to see his attack coming. I'd say a simple Sense Motive (DC: 5, 10, 15?) perhaps opposed by a Bluff check if the fighter was trying to conceal his intentions.
If the jerk fails: fighter gets a surprise round. If not: roll for initiative (the DM would probably let the jerk ready an action rather that a preemptive strike).