4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[eduar]

hi

why broken is bad?

I mean, all these things about making the game balanced, make the game unrealistic and not very fantastic, as Marvel vs. Capcom 3, is fun and all but Chris beating Hulk like example?

I think the brokenness is necessary and inherent to the game.

 

[Rhuarc]

Yes thats right.

I hoped you would elaborate a bit, do you plan to have one, two or three more tiers after that (just for the sake of presenting a complete framework of course)? And would the level range in the higher tiers also be always 10?

So are you saying you are making Orcus and Demogorgon Level 40 something?

Exactly. Of course one needs to alter his view of epic characters if the game is changed in this way, but almost the same goes for your changes of the current epic monsters and how they should impact the game.

...and of course the Powers, Feats, Items for about 25+ classes spanning a 50 Level gap between 31-80. Simples...a mere century of man-hours required and you should be good to go.

Hey, if we team-up it will only take us 50 years. We might even be able to see it through till the end

By the way, as we just touched this part of the game, I don't want to pry any secrets from you, but could you please give me a hint about what you are planning to introduce as new abilities of immortal characters?
Will there be divine feats replacing epic feats? Or a set of divine powers for everyone to choose from? Will these have for the most part any prerequisites? Maybe creating new classes or expanding the current classes? Or even go with the idea of portfolios and getting powers associated with them?

Just want to get a basic understanding of what you think will be best for granting the characters new powers, not any details about them. Would be very helpful for my own plans and ideas.

1. It'll take WAY too long.
2. The higher the level the greater chance of the game breaking down.
3. Very tough to come up with that many interesting monsters that are not simply reskins of lower level monsters.

1. Well, that depends. Is your goal to reach godhood? Or is it just to expand the game with a higher "more epic than epic" feeling? For me it is certainly the latter one. As long as I can give the players new, awesome powers and items to play with and can get them to face the many cool enemies I have in store for them, it's all fine. This doesn't have to be as full-fledged gods right away in my opinion. Also, if we are totally honest, how many campaigns would you see in reality that go from level 1 to level 40? Most of the time players will just create level 2x characters and go from there to explore the higher tiers.

2. Of course, but I think the framework of rules in 4E is solid enough to grant a more or less balanced game even in very high levels. We, as the creators of the new rules, just need to be very careful of what we are changing and adding to it.
Epic spellcasting for example was flawed from the very beginning and you had to invent a whole new ruleset to make it work again at high levels. The power system of 4E would not break down that easily in my opinion.

3. True, but I think as long as encounters are as fun and rewarding as in any of the lower tiers, it should be fine. Of course you need to create new powers according to the higher status of the foes, but the main focus (as in all other tiers as well) shouldn't be combat. The story around it is what really matters and if you can introduce monsters and adversaries with a fitting legendary background, it won't be that awful if some of them will look like reskins in the eyes of DMs (also, and this is overall an important tool, if the DM can change the monsters name, appearance and power names well enough, the players will never know it's a simple reskin and not a brand new critter).

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'll be back in here later to answer the posts...off to my once a week trip to the gym.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again matey!

Well, maybe I should have read-up on the Forsaken once more before making the comment, forgot they should be treated as demigods.

Indeed.

But maybe it really lies with the designed mechanics of such epic monsters. For the ususal combat encounters with a group of PCs the stat blocks are fine (at least for standard and most of the elite monsters), but for the overall threat level (storywise) they miss abilities that were present in 3.5.
Epic spells or powers which emulate them would go a long way in making such creatures a more dire threat, as they should be in the epic tier.

Exactly. Rituals and so forth work well here, but so does the idea of simply widening Auras, Breath Weapons and so forth.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a quite hard time coming up with many cool adventure ideas for Immortal characters off the top of my head without having more details about the potential setting. I mean once you are as powerful as gods there aren't many other routes to take than going "cosmic" (meaning threats that are not from the standard camaign world or the standard planes), right?

I have come up with five new regions for Immortals to explore.

Paragon Tier
The Desert
Icy Regions
Volcanic Regions
The Underdark
Undersea Regions

Epic Tier
Feywild
Shadowfell
Astral Plane
Elemental Chaos
Far Realm

Immortal Tier
...some new places.

You have to create new planes/dimensions and define how cosmic beings fit in the overall scheme of things.

Thats the easiest way to accomplish things.

I guess, at least at the moment, I'd rather explore a bit more of the basic multiverse and having many sources of inspiration ready to come up with challenges than taking the next step. Guess that's a big reason why I'd design another tier in between.

Which will require you to also create another group of unique planes and dimensions.

But you have a different view point, having thought about the expansion of the multiverse for many years (and having touched the subject a bit in the IH), so I think it comes easier to you.

Exactly. Which is why I advise against just adding new tiers for the sake of it.

By the way, it would be great if you could respond to post #714 as well, pretty sure you overlooked it as I made a double post

Thanks for the reminder - I must have missed that somehow.

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

hi

Hey eduar amigo!

why broken is bad?

...because its the opposite of good.

I mean, all these things about making the game balanced, make the game unrealistic and not very fantastic, as Marvel vs. Capcom 3, is fun and all but Chris beating Hulk like example?

You are confusing balance with verisimilitude (the illusion of reality).

Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is balanced. But Chris beating up the Hulk destroys the verisimilitude that the characters co-exist in anything other than a reality warped for the purposes of the videogame.

In an RPG, balance does not mean a random villager must have a chance of defeating a Balor. In fact the very reason behind levels is to differentiate between creatures of different power.

I think the brokenness is necessary and inherent to the game.

I hope I have changed your mind on that point.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

I hoped you would elaborate a bit, do you plan to have one, two or three more tiers after that (just for the sake of presenting a complete framework of course)?

Lets be honest, at the moment I'll be lucky to actually detail one, so until I get one done and dusted I won't be worrying about two or three.

And would the level range in the higher tiers also be always 10?

Yes.

Exactly. Of course one needs to alter his view of epic characters if the game is changed in this way, but almost the same goes for your changes of the current epic monsters and how they should impact the game.

If you were to make the Epic Tier more epic you wouldn't need to upscale Orcus or Demogorgon.

Hey, if we team-up it will only take us 50 years. We might even be able to see it through till the end

They'll be on 10th Edition by then where you just plug your mind into the Holodeck.

By the way, as we just touched this part of the game, I don't want to pry any secrets from you, but could you please give me a hint about what you are planning to introduce as new abilities of immortal characters?

I recall part of the War Portfolio has abilities for letting you auto hit, auto crit and so forth.

Will there be divine feats replacing epic feats?

Thats the plan at the moment, although that may change. Personally I think at Level 30 you probably have too many feats.

Or a set of divine powers for everyone to choose from?

No.

Will these have for the most part any prerequisites?

No. But you will be rewarded with Legendary Abilities for very high Ability Scores.

Maybe creating new classes or expanding the current classes?

Expanded Current Classes.

Or even go with the idea of portfolios and getting powers associated with them?

Portfolio Paths replaces Paragon Paths.

Just want to get a basic understanding of what you think will be best for granting the characters new powers, not any details about them. Would be very helpful for my own plans and ideas.

Each Portfolio wil have 4 Portfolio Paths, one for each play style (Leader, Striker, Controller, Defender). PCs will be able to choose abilities from any path - but obviously they'll suit certain classses more than others.

1. Well, that depends. Is your goal to reach godhood? Or is it just to expand the game with a higher "more epic than epic" feeling? For me it is certainly the latter one. As long as I can give the players new, awesome powers and items to play with and can get them to face the many cool enemies I have in store for them, it's all fine. This doesn't have to be as full-fledged gods right away in my opinion. Also, if we are totally honest, how many campaigns would you see in reality that go from level 1 to level 40? Most of the time players will just create level 2x characters and go from there to explore the higher tiers.

My goal is to make the Epic Tier EPIC and then take the Immortal Tier beyond epic.

2. Of course, but I think the framework of rules in 4E is solid enough to grant a more or less balanced game even in very high levels. We, as the creators of the new rules, just need to be very careful of what we are changing and adding to it.

On the face of it yes. But what the designers didn't take account of was the synergy between epic level characters is totally ridiculous (I suggest getting Mike Shea's DMing for Epic Tier Games).

So if you just build a bunch of Level 30 characters at random, then the game should still be reasonably balanced. Any group that puts a modicum of thought into character builds will decimate opponents 5 or 6 Levels above them.

Epic spellcasting for example was flawed from the very beginning and you had to invent a whole new ruleset to make it work again at high levels. The power system of 4E would not break down that easily in my opinion.

The Power System isn't the problem (though I imagine there are 1 or 2 broken powers that should be outlawed). The main problem is PC synergy.

3. True, but I think as long as encounters are as fun and rewarding as in any of the lower tiers, it should be fine. Of course you need to create new powers according to the higher status of the foes, but the main focus (as in all other tiers as well) shouldn't be combat. The story around it is what really matters and if you can introduce monsters and adversaries with a fitting legendary background, it won't be that awful if some of them will look like reskins in the eyes of DMs (also, and this is overall an important tool, if the DM can change the monsters name, appearance and power names well enough, the players will never know it's a simple reskin and not a brand new critter).

If you are just happy to continue a campaign ad infinitum then by all means go for it.

However, in my opinion Epic (and by extension an Immortal Tier) fails when it does not offer anything significantly new. Not to mention it becomes redundant when simply retreading the same ground with higher math.

 

[Rhuarc]

Immortal Tier
...some new places.

Ah, you're such a tease

Which will require you to also create another group of unique planes and dimensions.

Not really. As I'd space out the range bewteen epic and divine, there is enough material and inspiring locations to draw from on the standard planes. In my version you wouldn't be done with The Abyss, The Nine Hells or any of the other major planes in the Astral Sea at level 30.
Of course there is a need for some new stuff as well, but it's not mandatory for almost <i>everything</i> you want to do after 30 as it is in your version (as you will have not really many more challenges in the current Multiverse at the highest level)

Exactly. Which is why I advise against just adding new tiers for the sake of it.

Uhm, I think this statement isn't really fair. I don't add the tier just because it sounds good or anything like that. I also want to expand my game and create a new game experience for me and my players, with much to explore and be happy about the new powers available to them. Another tier between epic and immortal would just ease things for me to get used to the requirements and expectations of this style of gaming.
I mean, if I have a sound plan and enough resources and ideas to make this work for the players, why would it be that bad of an idea?
You are the expert and I expect you to handle things different than me, but that doesn't mean what I have planned won't work at all.

And to be honest, if you would be able to finish a detailed setting book about how to adress all the issues and provide enough examples and inspiration, I'd not waste another second on how the hell could I make things work for me on my own
But as it is, and probably will be for the next few years, I have to deal with the challenges more or less alone and an added tier would make things easier.

Lets be honest, at the moment I'll be lucky to actually detail one, so until I get one done and dusted I won't be worrying about two or three.

Of course, I just was curious about your grand overall plans. And don't tell me you don't think about the higher tiers from time to time. I know you do!
I guess, in the end, there will be a cosmic tier at least.

And would the level range in the higher tiers also be always 10?

Yes.

Mh, I was thinking about cosmic beings earlier this week and in the end I just couldn't imagine having a cosmic or even sideral tier with only 10 levels. I mean in the unimaginable vastness of the universe (and not even thinking about other dimensions) there have to be too many different creatures with greatly varying power as to fit them in the same tier of ten levels.
For example, should a being that rules over several planets or a solar system not be more than 10 levels below a being that rules over a whole galaxy with billions of planets (and a ruler of a galaxy isn't in the Sideral tier in my opinion)?
Getting a bit away from the basic IH discussion here, just writing what drifts through my head

If you were to make the Epic Tier more epic you wouldn't need to upscale Orcus or Demogorgon.

Well, as mentioned earlier the reason why I would upscale the divine beings isn't the lack of EPICNESS in the epic tier (though it is lacking of course), but that it would be easier for me to get into the higher levels.

They'll be on 10th Edition by then where you just plug your mind into the Holodeck.

Hehe, true. But at least we would have spend some quality time waiting for this to happen

Thats the plan at the moment, although that may change. Personally I think at Level 30 you probably have too many feats.

So, to summarize. You would have Divine Feats which replace Epic Feats, Legendary Abilities for very high Ability Scores, Portfolio Paths that replace Paragon Paths and Expanded Current Classes?
So you wouldn't change the epic destinies in any way, or use them as groundwork for something in the Immortal Tier?

Each Portfolio wil have 4 Portfolio Paths, one for each play style (Leader, Striker, Controller, Defender). PCs will be able to choose abilities from any path - but obviously they'll suit certain classses more than others.

That sounds great. But depending on how many portfolios there will be, a <i>lot</i> of work.

On the face of it yes. But what the designers didn't take account of was the synergy between epic level characters is totally ridiculous (I suggest getting Mike Shea's DMing for Epic Tier Games).
So if you just build a bunch of Level 30 characters at random, then the game should still be reasonably balanced. Any group that puts a modicum of thought into character builds will decimate opponents 5 or 6 Levels above them.

I have the book already and read through it some time ago. Great advise in there!
And yes, the synergy would be the main challenge to tackle for the DM. Though I'm convinced that the framework of the ruleset will be solid enough and provide enough room for us to handle that.

However, in my opinion Epic (and by extension an Immortal Tier) fails when it does not offer anything significantly new. Not to mention it becomes redundant when simply retreading the same ground with higher math.

Well, I guess this is a matter of opinion. If the DM introduces significantly new stories, enemies and challenges to overcome, that should be more than enough to be a happy player. It doesn't <i>need</i> to be something significantly new in combat necessarily. Though of course that helps a lot
And how can something become redunant if it is still fun for everyone?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Rhuarc mate!

Ah, you're such a tease

Not really. As I'd space out the range bewteen epic and divine, there is enough material and inspiring locations to draw from on the standard planes. In my version you wouldn't be done with The Abyss, The Nine Hells or any of the other major planes in the Astral Sea at level 30.

Well lets use the Abyss as an example.

You have the Balor at Level 27 Elite and then a 16 level gap to Orcus at 43.

Of course there is a need for some new stuff as well, but it's not mandatory for almost <i>everything</i> you want to do after 30 as it is in your version (as you will have not really many more challenges in the current Multiverse at the highest level)

Its possible to make do I suppose.

Uhm, I think this statement isn't really fair. I don't add the tier just because it sounds good or anything like that.

I am sure you have put a lot of thought into it. I had the exact same idea for a year or more into 4th edition. But the more and more I considered it, the more it seemed like a bad idea.

I also want to expand my game and create a new game experience for me and my players, with much to explore and be happy about the new powers available to them. Another tier between epic and immortal would just ease things for me to get used to the requirements and expectations of this style of gaming.

I'm not saying it couldn't work and the last thing I will do is rain on another's parade. But if you are asking my opinion (and by virtue of coming to this forum I assume you are), my suggestion would be to make the most of the Epic Tier rather than start creating more and more tiers.

At the moment the epic tier itself is underpopulated with options. But compared to a wholly new tier its a veritable smorgas-board.

I mean, if I have a sound plan and enough resources and ideas to make this work for the players, why would it be that bad of an idea?

Its not a bad idea at all.

You are the expert and I expect you to handle things different than me, but that doesn't mean what I have planned won't work at all.

On the contrary I think the 'idea' would work. I just think that getting to that point will be a LOT more work than you are bargaining for.

And to be honest, if you would be able to finish a detailed setting book about how to adress all the issues and provide enough examples and inspiration, I'd not waste another second on how the hell could I make things work for me on my own

I'll have something along those lines eventually.

But as it is, and probably will be for the next few years, I have to deal with the challenges more or less alone and an added tier would make things easier.

Well the Immortals Handbook will be 2 books after the Vampire Bestiary.

Of course, I just was curious about your grand overall plans. And don't tell me you don't think about the higher tiers from time to time. I know you do!
I guess, in the end, there will be a cosmic tier at least.

I have thoughts on a 10-tier system, but I think ultimately 4 will be enough. 5 at the absolute limit (and even then there is no way a 5th Tier would be fully fleshed out).

Mh, I was thinking about cosmic beings earlier this week and in the end I just couldn't imagine having a cosmic or even sideral tier with only 10 levels. I mean in the unimaginable vastness of the universe (and not even thinking about other dimensions) there have to be too many different creatures with greatly varying power as to fit them in the same tier of ten levels.

For example, should a being that rules over several planets or a solar system not be more than 10 levels below a being that rules over a whole galaxy with billions of planets (and a ruler of a galaxy isn't in the Sideral tier in my opinion)?

Getting a bit away from the basic IH discussion here, just writing what drifts through my head

The closer you get to the top of the Pyramid the more power gets condensed.

Well, as mentioned earlier the reason why I would upscale the divine beings isn't the lack of EPICNESS in the epic tier (though it is lacking of course), but that it would be easier for me to get into the higher levels.

I don't understand how making Orcus Level 43 (instead of 33) makes anything easier for anyone?

Hehe, true. But at least we would have spend some quality time waiting for this to happen

We could design it for our grandchildren.

So, to summarize. You would have Divine Feats which replace Epic Feats,

Thats the current plan, but I do think there are too many feats.

Legendary Abilities for very high Ability Scores, Portfolio Paths that replace Paragon Paths and Expanded Current Classes?

yes.

So you wouldn't change the epic destinies in any way, or use them as groundwork for something in the Immortal Tier?

I'm for the idea that the Epic destinies are powered by Worship Points rather than XP, but I am not sure people will like the idea so I am not sure about that.

That sounds great. But depending on how many portfolios there will be, a <i>lot</i> of work.

To start with, just 8. Death, War, Fire and Magic are four of those I have worked on.

I have the book already and read through it some time ago. Great advise in there!

Indeed.

And yes, the synergy would be the main challenge to tackle for the DM. Though I'm convinced that the framework of the ruleset will be solid enough and provide enough room for us to handle that.

The framework is solid yes, but what seems to happen is that the PCs punch vastly above their weight (by about 20% at epic level) which means that the major problem is going to be the tipping point whereby the DM increases the challenge (to give the PCs a good fight) but to the point where the majority of d20 rolls become obsolete.

So for instance to challenge a Level 30 party you might need a Level 38 Encounter, but using monsters that high level could result in certain PCs being unable to hit or always getting hit.

Well, I guess this is a matter of opinion. If the DM introduces significantly new stories, enemies and challenges to overcome, that should be more than enough to be a happy player. It doesn't <i>need</i> to be something significantly new in combat necessarily. Though of course that helps a lot

Absolutely.

And how can something become redunant if it is still fun for everyone?

I meant doing the work to accomodate a higher tier when a lower tier is doing the exact same thing already...is redundant.

 

[Rhuarc]

Well lets use the Abyss as an example.

You have the Balor at Level 27 Elite and then a 16 level gap to Orcus at 43.

And I have repeatedly said that I have more than enough in store to fill the next 16 levels easily. But alright, maybe lets agree that this new tier would be well-suited for me, but not so much for the other DMs who have nothing to populate the new tier with.

I am sure you have put a lot of thought into it. I had the exact same idea for a year or more into 4th edition. But the more and more I considered it, the more it seemed like a bad idea.

Yeah, I guess it becomes apparent to me that I didn't see the big picture until now. In the end I was not asking what you think about <i>my</i> campaign and the new tier in it, but what you say to the overall idea.

I'm not saying it couldn't work and the last thing I will do is rain on another's parade. But if you are asking my opinion (and by virtue of coming to this forum I assume you are), my suggestion would be to make the most of the Epic Tier rather than start creating more and more tiers.

Yeah, you are right. Sorry that I felt offended at first by your statement, but I guess I should have made the distinction between the new tier in my campaign and with the resources I can bring to the table, and the other DMs who don't have anything comparable.
I can start arguing about that when I'm prepared to put out books like you to help other people introduce a Legendary Tier and give them the rules and creatures to populate it

Its not a bad idea at all.

Yes, it is. Just not for me.

Well the Immortals Handbook will be 2 books after the Vampire Bestiary.

Well, you'll forgive me if I'm not very excited about this just now

I don't understand how making Orcus Level 43 (instead of 33) makes anything easier for anyone?

Never mind. I would make things easier for me, not for anybody else.

Thats the current plan, but I do think there are too many feats.

That's probably true.

I'm for the idea that the Epic destinies are powered by Worship Points rather than XP, but I am not sure people will like the idea so I am not sure about that.

Mh, I can see this raising a few eyebrows. Would be a big change, not really sure I'd like the idea much either at first. But interesting idea nonetheless.

The framework is solid yes, but what seems to happen is that the PCs punch vastly above their weight (by about 20% at epic level) which means that the major problem is going to be the tipping point whereby the DM increases the challenge (to give the PCs a good fight) but to the point where the majority of d20 rolls become obsolete.

True, that was a big problem of the 3.5 system at the end. Need to be very careful about this.

So for instance to challenge a Level 30 party you might need a Level 38 Encounter, but using monsters that high level could result in certain PCs being unable to hit or always getting hit.

In such an instance, I'd rather use new powers to help out the stats which are too low. So for example I'd still use a level 34 monster but give it something like "Legendary Toughness" which triples its hit points to help it survive long enough.
This may be not "fair" for the current game and the rules the players expect, but with a new tier you have every freedom to create your own little helpers to add to the balance. So the d20 roll would retain its original value, but the monster is way tougher than before. Same can of course be done to damage and attacks, etc.
In the end, every DM has to experience first-hand what his group is able to do in combat and adjust the enemies accordingly. A reason why you really should make some playtesting for immortal enemies, UK.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Rhuarc mate!

And I have repeatedly said that I have more than enough in store to fill the next 16 levels easily.

I'm guesstimating at least 10 monsters per level as the minimum to make it interesting. So just 160 monsters/NPCs then.

But alright, maybe lets agree that this new tier would be well-suited for me, but not so much for the other DMs who have nothing to populate the new tier with.

If you have them then a pdf (of them) would help other DMs.

Yeah, I guess it becomes apparent to me that I didn't see the big picture until now. In the end I was not asking what you think about <i>my</i> campaign and the new tier in it, but what you say to the overall idea.

Don't be dissuaded by something I or anyone else says. If you think its the right way to go then best of luck.

Yeah, you are right. Sorry that I felt offended at first by your statement, but I guess I should have made the distinction between the new tier in my campaign and with the resources I can bring to the table, and the other DMs who don't have anything comparable.

No harm done amigo. We are all friends here.

I can start arguing about that when I'm prepared to put out books like you to help other people introduce a Legendary Tier and give them the rules and creatures to populate it

Well if you are planning on detailing 100+ new monsters for your campaign then you should consider releasing that as a pdf.

Well, you'll forgive me if I'm not very excited about this just now

Given my track record thats perfectly understandable.

Never mind. I would make things easier for me, not for anybody else.

If you say so.

Mh, I can see this raising a few eyebrows. Would be a big change, not really sure I'd like the idea much either at first. But interesting idea nonetheless.

Yes its going to need a bit more thought before I decide one way or another.

True, that was a big problem of the 3.5 system at the end. Need to be very careful about this.

It could be easily solved by part-toning down problem powers and part beefing up the monsters.

In such an instance, I'd rather use new powers to help out the stats which are too low. So for example I'd still use a level 34 monster but give it something like "Legendary Toughness" which triples its hit points to help it survive long enough.

You have to be careful treading a fine line between a challenge and a grind.

One thing I have been considering is the solo HP multiplier:

Heroic Tier = x4
Paragon tier = x5
Epic Tier = x6
Immortal Tier = x7

This may be not "fair" for the current game and the rules the players expect, but with a new tier you have every freedom to create your own little helpers to add to the balance. So the d20 roll would retain its original value, but the monster is way tougher than before. Same can of course be done to damage and attacks, etc.

Well I'll have super-solo monsters. I don't think you want to make massive differences to the power of monsters. Just make sure they have all the basics at maximum.

In the end, every DM has to experience first-hand what his group is able to do in combat and adjust the enemies accordingly. A reason why you really should make some playtesting for immortal enemies, UK.

Well I have Orcus out there, I am planning another such monster in a week or less.