D&D is not a supers game.

I kind of agree I like first level to be scary. I don't want to go back to wizards with 1 hit point so I like the way you get max hit points at first level.

I want my 1 st level characters to be new at all this and easily killed if they mess up this s the level to learn that not working as a team or just charging blindly in gets you killed.

If I want to start with better trained PCs then I start at a higher level.

I have never heard any newbie complain that there characters suck at first level they don't know that they supposedly suck. I have seen excitement and fear on their faces and the high fiving that comes after defeating their first encounter.

I see far more experienced players complain about first level because they want to get on to higher level cool things that they prefer.
 

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The last thing I want is for new players to think that they can accomplish something without earning it.
The notion that players should have to "earn" their enjoyment is nonsense
I'm with Dannager on this one.

D&D is an entertainment - a game - and it should be able to provide enjoyment in play to new players who take the effort to learn the rules. That's not to say that there can't be better or worse play (although probably not to the same degree of contrast between inexperienced and expert as exists in chess, say). But it has to be fun to play out of the box.

In this respect, I don't think D&D is ever going to be quite like learning a musical instrument or how to play golf, where you start out sucking but through dedicated application you become able to do something at least a little bit worthwhile. Because with these things, even at the start there is a pleasure - a pleasure in your own creativity, on the musical side, and various types of physical pleasure (as well as the company of friends, etc) on the sporting side.

D&D needs to provide pleasure at the start. If that is the pleasure of creativity, then 1st level PCs need to be viable vehicles for creativity. If this is the pleasure of overcoming challenges, then 1st level PCs need to be viable vehicles for taking on challenges, even for those who have just learned the rules.

The sense of accomplishment you get when playing rpgs comes from overcoming challenges.
This is contentious. I mean, there is a well-known RPG site (The Forge) the whole premise of which is that there are at least three identifiable and distinct ways to gain a sense of accomplishment from playing an RPG, of which overcoming challenges is only one. (The Forge calls it gamism. The other two species of accomplishent that The Forge identifies are the accomplishment of "being there" in the fiction - they call that simulationism - and the accomplishment of creating a literarily worthwhile story via play - they call that narrativism.)

This is true in any game, really. I don't think that beginning tennis players should be firing aces, or beginning poker players should be capable of winning money against experienced ones. Likewise, I don't believe that beginning D&D characters should be capable of shooting infinite magic bolts or defeating competent opponents in combat.
You seem here to be running together players and PCs.

Beginning tennis players don't play very well, but they can still enjoy playing, because they still get to do (in a novice way) the sort of stuff that social tennis is about - hitting the ball, enjoying physicality, hanging out with their friends, etc.

Beginning D&D players won't play very well, either. In a tactically-oriented game they'll have trouble coordinating with one another and will miss opportunities and make bad action choices. (If the PC build rules are complex enough, they'll also make bad choices at build relative to their goals for their PCs.) In a story-oriented game they'll be timid and shy and hesitant in seeing the opportunity for theme and following it, and new GMs will tend to be railroady and shut down their players and generally be afraid of letting ingame events develop their own dynamics.

But none of this is possible if their playing pieces - their PCs - are mechanically incapable. New musicians don't start with instruments that don't work. New sports players don't start with broken golf clubs or racquets without strings. New D&D players need PCs that work too, and that are capable of being played well - whatever exactly playing well means for a particular group.
 

People really arent reading the OP's post here. This was the point from the OP

4) Make the skills the main focus of the Rogue Class - not just the 'striker' role (although, admittedly, this is much better in D&D Next than it was in 4th Ed). I'm not asking for big long lists (definitely not!), but what about being able to pickpocket again?

What he said was he wanted pick pockets on the list of theif skills. Have a look on the character sheet from the playtest, its not there. He is right.

What he DIDNT say (and which people for some reason think he is saying) is that it should be rogue only. No one at any point during this thread said that rogue should be the only class capable. In fact, the makers of 5e have stated that that is exactlywhat they dont want either.

Want your fighter/cleric/mage to pick pockets? Fine. They can. Roll Dex. What the OP is asking for is simply that the theif background includes pickpocket in its bonus. He want the theif to be better at it than the other classes. Frankly I agree.

Rogue = Pickpockets well, everyone else = allowed to give it a shot (and have a fair chance due to the flattening phiulosophy of design in 5e). It all sounds good to me.

Under my interpretation he is better at it. He's trained in Stealth and thus benefits from Skill Mastery. At 2nd level he can use his Knack ability to get advantage on the check. The rogue is a skill class, you just have to look at more than skill numbers. He gets roughly twice the skills that every other character gets and is far more consistent.

I can see where some people would prefer that they were separate skills for traditions sake. I just think they occupy the same conceptual space.
 


Under my interpretation he is better at it. He's trained in Stealth and thus benefits from Skill Mastery. At 2nd level he can use his Knack ability to get advantage on the check. The rogue is a skill class, you just have to look at more than skill numbers. He gets roughly twice the skills that every other character gets and is far more consistent.

I can see where some people would prefer that they were separate skills for traditions sake. I just think they occupy the same conceptual space.

Sorry, my bad (so many people were having a shot at the op, I was frantically trying to defend the poor guy, I didnt understand)

Yes, of course, use stealth to pick pockets. You could do it that way, though I do wonder why a ranger under that idea would be good at picking pockets?

Thing is, we are not sure how skills are actually acquired. If the skills are just tied directly to the scheme and it doesn't cost you any extra to include another skill, why not just put pick pockets in?
 

I'm not of the persuasion that my friends who have decided to sit down to enjoy a game in their free time should have to earn anything in order to have fun, or to enjoy the things their character can do.

The notion that players should have to "earn" their enjoyment is nonsense, and I'm tempted to say it comes from a place of gamer elitism, which this hobby has no room for.

At what point did earning experience and power thereof become the same thing as 'earning' enjoyment? I find it enjoyable to start off relatively ordinary and then earn greatness through adventuring deeds. D&D in it's current iteration denies me this enjoyment because it basically starts PCs off as superheroes.
 

At what point did earning experience and power thereof become the same thing as 'earning' enjoyment? I find it enjoyable to start off relatively ordinary and then earn greatness through adventuring deeds. D&D in it's current iteration denies me this enjoyment because it basically starts PCs off as superheroes.

You start off being able to do cool things. You don't start out as superheroes. And you certainly don't start out anywhere near as powerful as you will be at paragon and epic tiers. If you can't find enjoyment in that, you're probably actively trying not to.
 

I agree that the HP "kicker" at level 1 needs to be removed. While I can appreciate the desire to make level 1 not so deadly... leave that up to the DM. The HP kicker can make some npc encounters laughable, specially the low HD/CR/level/whatever it ends up being.

I always liked the older version of D&D's level 1 PCs. They are just a step up from a dirt farmer (outside of something like Cavaliers/etc). Ex-town militia turned adventurer, apprentice wizard sets out on his own... they all start somewhere... and level 1 does appear to be where.
Just being a wizard that can cast a single spell a day does make them "super heroes" to all the dirt farmers though. The ex-militia is a honored hero for his services... but he does not have to be someone that can cut down an ogre in 1 hit on his first adventure.
 

I fall into the camp on not wanting D&D to be an exercise in self flagellation in which I lose 4 characters before we even get to the dungeon.

If that makes me a superhero munchkin power gamer, I am comfortable with that.
 

You start off being able to do cool things. You don't start out as superheroes. And you certainly don't start out anywhere near as powerful as you will be at paragon and epic tiers. If you can't find enjoyment in that, you're probably actively trying not to.

Well that's a provocative statement, because the fact is that there are plenty of RPGs that cater to this taste - how many 'cool things' does a beginning character get in WFRP or TOR or RuneQuest? Not nearly as much as they do in D&D as it stands. Moreover, as a fan of fantasy literature in general, the basic problem with D&D is that it doesn't recreate the feel of a whole bulk of the genre it purports to be about. Yet, to me at least, previous iterations of the game - the one I grew up with - did.

If D&D Next is supposed to be about unification, then people need to start thinking more inclusive than this.
 

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