Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

[Imaro]

I think that last part is a bit carefully-crafted. In 4E fighters still hit stuff, and wizards still have the largest selection of powers, due to their spellbook feature. You might not think that it's "large", but it's still the largest.


Again, just because something is easy to understand does not mean it's not a significant change. A change with a good reason, perhaps, but still a change. Since the introduction of the thief class, only it had a skill list like this...but applying it to all characters is not a big change, to you. See comments below.


If allowing everyone to have skills is not a big change, surely giving everyone the same resource-management scheme is also not so big?

Previously, the skills set the thief apart from the other classes. That was taken away in 3E. The per-day spells set the casters apart from the other classes (except, to some extent, the other classes that had per-day abilities, since we're talking resource management). That was taken away in 4E.

Moreover, 3E put every race on equal footing. Any race could be any class and go up to any level, which is of course very different from 2E. There was no such thing as a non-human paladin in 2E. They simply didn't exist. In 3E and 4E, they're all over the place. Move beyond thinking just about classes and you realize that this is an enormous change in its own right.


It certainly didn't survive unscathed between 2E and 3E either. How many spontaneous-casting classes were there in 2E? The 4E change to spellcasters is bigger than 3E, but that's not the only factor to consider.

As for healing, 3E had a pretty big change there as well in the form of the Wand of Cure Light Wounds. So even though the spell system was pretty close, the item crafting system was entirely different and had a huge impact on play.

I think alot of your observations ignore the later books in the AD&D 2e lifecycle like Skills and Powers, granted they aren't core but they do highlight how the system evolved over the 2e lifecycle and it has alot of similarities to 3e.

 

[Fifth Element]

I think alot of your observations ignore the later books in the AD&D 2e lifecycle like Skills and Powers, granted they aren't core but they do highlight how the system evolved over the 2e lifecycle.

That's intentional, because I'm also ignoring later books in the 3E life cycle, which of course introduced at-will magic (warlocks and reserve feats) and per-day-resource fighters (Bo9S). Bringing those into the discussion greatly strenghthen the bond between 3E and 4E, especially considering bedrockbrendan's arguments seem to rest largely on resource management.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't necessarily expect that you would change your opinion, I'm just trying to point out some inconsistencies in your arguments (some things you consider big changes but equivalent ones you brush off), perhaps not for your benefit but at least the audience's.

To me these are not inconsistencies. Restructuring classes around the powers system simple has more weight to me than putting thieves skills into a general skill list others can select from. I dont expect all to agree (or that everone will find the change to wizards as radical as i do). But to me these are much bigger changes than most of the stuff from 2e to 3e

 

[Fifth Element]

To me these are not inconsistencies. Restructuring classes around the powers system simple has more weight to me than putting thieves skills into a general skill list others can select from. I dont expect all to agree (or that everone will find the change to wizards as radical as i do). But to me these are much bigger changes than most of the stuff from 2e to 3e

What about the complete and utter removal of all racial class and level limits? It's difficult to see an argument that that's only a minor change to the game. Until 2E there were very strict limits on which races could be which class, and then how many levels they could progress in said class as well.

If "all classes are wizards" is a big change, then surely "all races are human" (with the addition that humans can now multiclass freely) is as well?

 

[jadrax]

What about the complete and utter removal of all racial class and level limits? It's difficult to see an argument that that's only a minor change to the game. Until 2E there were very strict limits on which races could be which class, and then how many levels they could progress in said class as well.

If "all classes are wizards" is a big change, then surely "all races are human" (with the addition that humans can now multiclass freely) is as well?

I think the issue with that as a point is that a lot of people were ignoring it anyway, so It did not actually come as a change.

Where as I doubt anyone was using the 4th edition Power set-up prior to 4th.

 

[Imaro]

That's intentional, because I'm also ignoring later books in the 3E life cycle, which of course introduced at-will magic (warlocks and reserve feats) and per-day-resource fighters (Bo9S). Bringing those into the discussion greatly strenghthen the bond between 3E and 4E, especially considering bedrockbrendan's arguments seem to rest largely on resource management.

Well we can agree to disagree, because I honestly feel like 3e plays and reads much closer to 2e than 4e does to 3e. But then that's the wonderful thing about opinions.

 

[Fifth Element]

I think the issue with that as a point is that a lot of people were ignoring it anyway, so It did not actually come as a change.

That's a fair comment, I think. But should the fact that people were not playing the system as written enter into discussions about the systems themselves? If DMs allowed full overnight healing in 3E, could we then claim that 4E's healing wasn't so different after all?

 

[Bedrockgames]

What about the complete and utter removal of all racial class and level limits? It's difficult to see an argument that that's only a minor change to the game. Until 2E there were very strict limits on which races could be which class, and then how many levels they could progress in said class as well.

If "all classes are wizards" is a big change, then surely "all races are human" (with the addition that humans can now multiclass freely) is as well?

It is a key change but to me less enormous than the powers structure for all classes.

 

[jadrax]

That's a fair comment, I think. But should the fact that people were not playing the system as written enter into discussions about the systems themselves? If DMs allowed full overnight healing in 3E, could we then claim that 4E's healing wasn't so different after all?

When your talking about how jarring a change something is, you kind of have to.

The differences between the core systems might be academically interesting, but to the people actually playing it is largely irrelevant.

Further, I think realistically you also have to take into account other cultural influences. If you think that 3rd or 4th took aspects form other very popular games around that many people would already know about, then that is going to be much less jarring than them just adding totally new elements. It's actually a very complex field of research.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's a fair comment, I think. But should the fact that people were not playing the system as written enter into discussions about the systems themselves? If DMs allowed full overnight healing in 3E, could we then claim that 4E's healing wasn't so different after all?

I think that helps explain why an individual may see no difference. But personally I never had a group where overnight heals were allowed (and it never seemed the norm to me). Regarding demihuman level limits I do think its an obvious and important change, but I wouldn't label it major personally. Also the reason for the change is important here too to a degree. Racial level imits were a believability issue for many players of AD&D. My own group used to raise questions about it all the time. Removing those limits didn't turn elves and dwarves into humans, it just removed what seemed like an arbitrary limit placed strictly for balance not believability. That was one of the adjustments I thought made sense in 3e. But did it radically alter my experience of the game the way that having a fighter with utility, daily, at will and encounter powers did? To me the answer is no.

I am not saying the way 3e approached multiclassing wasn't a big deal. This was a major change from 2e to 3e, arguably the central change that matters between the two editions. It definitely altered the way the game played. 3e is not 2e. My point is simpy that the transition to 3e was a lot less jarring IMO.