Homosexuality in your games

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Females are (slightly over) half the population. Estimates place homosexuality down around 10%. The females are generally visually obvious, while the homosexuals are not. Your typical person, therefore, probably has more known exposure to the opposite gender than to homosexuals.

So, there's your unawareness, right there. We should not ascribe to personal bias that which can be explained by simple lack of available information.

Uhmm... I'm not going to into that 10%. I have read more papers that point at a much greater percentage, but it is nay to impossible to prove.

I could pretty much agree with your point about the lack of available information. However I can't completely agree with you because of one simple reason: it happens more often (ignoring or not including gay characters) than the level of unawareness.

I am not talking just about playing gay characters around the table, I am also talking about authors who write book after book after book without making the slightest concession to the existence of homosexuality in their games and adventures.
 

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The thing that frustrates me is that, no matter how many people become vocal about it, it keeps happening. Maybe is because many people in the games industry try to justify it with "it's what the public wants, so we have to give it to them", or maybe is because some artist pander towards a fantasy from the mind of someone who's got a part of that mind still stuck in puberty...
I enjoy seeing pretty women in skimpy clothes. I know women who enjoy seeing well-built men in same. I am somewhat offended by your insinuation that because of such, our minds are still "stuck in puberty."

The thing is that we still see chain mail bikinis. Do you people have any idea how uncomfortable they are? Seriously, after wearing them for a while, nipples hurt like mad!
Why on earth do I care how uncomfortable they are? It's a fantasy. Pretty sure regular chain mail isn't exactly a cashmere sweater either.

However when I bring androgyny into the game, or homosexuality, or trans-gender characters, all hell breaks loose.
I am curious, how exactly do you "bring androgyny into the game, or homosexuality"? I ask because I pretty much never bring up heterosexuality in the game. All my characters are, but I never declare it, or make sure NPCs know it, etc. The only time it might come up would be if my character were to find an NPC they wanted to pursue romantically off-screen, which happens rarely.

Indeed, for all the other players know, all the characters I've played for the last year could have been gay. It's been a while since any of my PCs have found an NPC of any interest. :erm:

In fact I was very happy with Andi died because the banter was getting so out of hand I really wasn't looking forward to play him anymore.
Did this banter happen only with you, and only with your gay character? In my group we have mercilessly teased party members for verbal slips, sometimes for years on end. One player still gets teased for making a comment about getting his wolf (his ranger's animal companion) a "leather outfit" at one point (he'd wanted barding, as the paladin had just bought some for his mount).

Why do you feel that this was due to you (or more specifically your character's) sexuality, rather than the general raunchiness of the group as a whole?

How many people don't bother exploring what having a gay character would be like? How many people are still scared of trying that out? And how much mockery and stupid banter do you have to put up with if you do?

I have zero interest in having a gay character. Am I scared of it? No. You don't have to be scared of something to have no interest in doing it. I doubt I'd have to worry about any mockery if I did do it, though. Other than the mockery our group already dishes out regularly.

And homosexuality gets largely ignored in world creation too. There don't seem to be any consequences to homosexuality in word creation. Rarely do you find a court with two kings. Or with a king and a prince-consort. Or a queen and a princess-consort.
If there were a gay player at my table, I think I would put one in. My game worlds pretty much always have modern sensibilities when it comes to men/women despite historical hoo-hah, so I see no reason why there couldn't be a gay monarch somewhere. Thus far I haven't happened to pick up a gay player though, so I haven't.

I see no reason to shoehorn homosexuality into my games when everyone at the table is hetero.

Why are we readier to accept and/or play a female character than a transgender or a gay one?Are we really as open minded and tolerant as we like to believe?
Are you suggesting that someone willing to play a female character but not a gay one is close-minded and intolerant?
 

I have always assumed my gay players play gay characters and my straight players play straight characters. If I am introducing a love interest in the game, which I seldom do, I tailor it towards the player's orientation. Only a couple of times has a player said I'm playing a PC with a different sexual orientation than I have. Playing a blatantly sexual PC, either straight or gay, tends to bring mocking comments out at my table - it has little to do with orientation.
 

In general, I think people should basically play what they like to play. Some folks like to play ale-swilling dwarves and will even play this archetype in games of transhuman sci-fi in one way or another. Some folks like to play super-magical nerdy types. Others play warrior-women, or nature-hippy-lovers or Awesome Dudes On Fire or lithe, dexeterous types, or witty spy types, or whatever.

Some folks just like a particular archetype (or two or three or four) and don't generally go outside of that, and that's fine.

Others like to play a variety of characters inside and outside the norm (I count myself among that population), with what they choose to play based on their own particular predilection at the moment, or random chance, or whatever. That's fine, too.

Amongst the galaxy of archetypes and character types, the "Camp Gay" is one of them. Not one of them everyone likes or wants to bother with at their table, but one of them.

One of them that inevitably inspires bawdy jokes. It's balled up in the archetype: the character is about their sexuality, to a large degree.

So it's one that only very...er...open...parents would probably be willing to share with their young 'uns.

I don't recall playing a gay character myself, ever. Mostly because my characters usually don't wear their sexualities on their sleeves, anyway. I've had a few gender-swapped characters (most recently, a gnome artificer and a thri-kreen ranger), but neither one had any real romantic prospects. They may as well be asexual. My male characters, for the most part, are the same way.

I've had female characters and gay characters and gay female characters and camp gay characters in games I've run. I've played with a pretty diverse selection of players, though, too. From the gay player who played the straight male character who was a telepathic womanizer to the gay male player who played the gay woman character who worshiped Athena to the straight female player who played the "omnisexual" male cleric of love and lust. I've seen a pretty big diversity. Whenever a player played up the sexuality of the character, there was hilarious color commentary often involving wang puns. It had a lot more to do with the presence of sexuality as a major character trait than it had to do with the genders or sexualities of the assorted folks at the table.

One of my recent campaigns involved a gay man who played a gay character who was a Fey-pact Warlock (4e) who claimed he got his powers by sleeping with and becoming the "favored boy" of a particularly beautiful (male) Fey Lord, and who then used his powers to bang everything, particularly dudes. Sexuality and power were woven together in the character, so of course, sexual jokes were hurled about, because that's part of what the character was about.

I think some groups just don't really like being concerned about their characters' sexualities overmuch. Which is fine. It's not always an identifying characteristic for people. It isn't always part of a character's (or player's) bag of things they want to have fun pretending to be in D&D. I think sometimes people who spend a lot of time thinking about their own sexualities (and occasionally have that reflected in their D&D characters) might forget that the dude across the table playing the ale-swilling dwarf probably devoted more thought to chainmail vs. paltemail than they did to what the dwarf likes to bang. And that's a valid playstyle. Also, it is valid to worry more about sexuality than equipment, if that's what you want to do.

It should be said, though, that the more sexuality is a part of your character concept, the more it becomes a bit...PG-13, at least. If a big part of your character is what they do in the boudoir (or in public), it's going to get commentary, just as that drunk dwarf probably gets commentary on how he's had a few drunk accidents, or how he rolled a 1 because he began to sober up, or....
 

I have not made a case for that push, though. And I haven't said we're not open minded. I have question if, since we don't feel as familiar playing a gay character as we do playing a female one (as you pointed out) we are *as* open minded as we think we are. I know we are open minded as a whole (exceptions everywhere), but as much as we think? I doubt it!



And again I am not arguing any of those points. I am not saying people *should* play a type of character or another and I am not saying that playing a type of character or another makes you narrow minded (though it could be the case, of course).

What I am saying is that we don't consider playing that type of characters when they're available and that is for a reason. Discomfort and unawareness probably being the most likely
What you said was that we probably aren't as open-minded and tolerant as we think we are because "we" aren't playing enough gay characters. I'm summarizing in my own words, of course. If you think that somehow means you're not making those points, maybe you should consider that you're not as self-aware as you think. It's really quite difficult to imagine any other way to take what you said. If not, help me to understand what you're trying to get at, and how my first sentence in this paragraph is incorrect.
 

That's not an excuse. I'm saying it's a great big universe and you are not.

I'm explaining that you are not the majority, and that as stated from the first quote, not all of us are as nice as we should be. You will have to put up with it, because your alternatives are slow moving to change minds or rapidly ending in gunfire when you go postal against the forces of jerkiness.

I have described Humanity. How you handle interactions with it, now forearmed is your problem. To rage against it is like yelling at the storm, you can not simply change its nature, and thus it is better to be like bamboo, which bends with the wind, and then straightens after it is passed.

If the Suffragettes had thought like that, women wouldn't be able to vote still. If everyone thought the same, we'd be used to take abuse time and time again and do nothing about it.

Forgive me, but I don't have to put up with people being rude because of me being gay. I don't have to "just take it stoically" as someone recently advised. I think I have all my right to defend myself and, since I rarely shout and even more rarely am aggressive (because I am too good at it), at least try to educate and stand my ground.

I might not be big in the universe, but I am still part of it.

I covered that too by throwing you a bone that I acknowledge that while I don't want to watch a gay sex scene, gay people don't want to watch straight scenes. There was a counterpoint in my statement and you missed it.

Not sure I missed it. I just don't consider the importance of being gay to be limited to just having gay sex. True that I don't want to see a straight sex scene, but I don't want to see gay one either.

Having a gay relationship is not just about sex between the members of the relationship


Making sure you're treated well and fairly as a human being is of my interest. The details of the issues you face because of your nature are of no more consequence to me than whether the house wife down the block ever gets over her middle-child syndrome.

No, but you're probably a lot more aware of what the house-wife issues than of your gay neighbour (assuming you have one and know he/she is gay)


Now to throw the bone back in your court, just what non-sex gay-stuff do you think you're going to roleplay out in somebody's generic RPG campaign that's equivalent to what the straight players do? Here's the issues you said that might be reflected that you said: "attractions, motivations, desires and the way to face and grow within "

Needless to say, depends on what game you're playing.

In my ToC adventure was a gay priest who had been forced into priesthood because it was the only place he had to find some acceptance within society.

If you're gay in a game you might have different clubs you go to. Different contacts. You'll be treated differently by society and maybe you'll have different motivations to do things (like a hate for the police who beat you up).

And how about the relationship with family and friends? Are you a castaway because you've been outed to your 1920's parents?

Do those examples give you a good picture?

We (and I mean the presumed majority of gamers we), don't do that emotional stuff with straight PCs. That kind of equivalent thing ain't going on at most tables for straight people. What makes you so special that the GM has to make special content for your gay issues, when in general, there's no content for hetero-sexual issues.

But there is content for heterosexual issues. There is marriage, brothels, succubae, relationships... The whole thing is built around heterosexual issues!

And why shouldn't gay characters, gods, locales, rituals, situations be available to all players and characters? I am not saying those things should only be enjoyed by gay people!

Why can't you have access to a god that favours characters that establish gay relationships?

Most of the monsters and NPCs don't care if you have a penis or vagina, let alone which one you prefer. As such, there's not a lot of "Special Episide of Blossom" going on.

Not sure I can agree with that. How many times do you specify how many females are in a group of raiding orcs or goblings, or kobolds? When was the last time you saw a male subbubae, or a male Medusa?

Most people aren't role-playing out gender issues or sexual issues. Therefore, gay-issues have a right to the same lack of attention.

Again, I can't accept that. Every single world setting out there is based around heterosexual archetypes and homosexuality is ignored.

Blue Rose comes to mind as one that doesn't. And that was written by Steve Kenson, a gay writer.

And note, if there's a group that does or want to focus on that stuff, that's fine. But realize that most people probably don't, and that's where you might be getting resistance from.

And my initial point was to ask why. Why the discomfort, why the resistance?
 

The same reason I don't envision spellcasting characters. I just don't prefer them.

Oh sure. I think everyone is the same there, and I am sure everyone has reasons for that.

What I wonder is what those reasons are in terms of gay characters.

I know FIFY's are not en vogue at ENW, but you really need a qualifier or caveat in there. It can be. It isn't necessarily. It's a bit insulting and presume a priori that nobody can possibly be self-aware.

Sorry, but it is. You might have high level of self-awareness and I can guarantee you that your self-awareness won't be unbiased or infallible.

Feel free to take it as an insult if you want, but it is not. It's just psychological reality.
 

I enjoy seeing pretty women in skimpy clothes. I know women who enjoy seeing well-built men in same. I am somewhat offended by your insinuation that because of such, our minds are still "stuck in puberty."

No offence intended. There is nothing wrong with puberty.

Why on earth do I care how uncomfortable they are? It's a fantasy. Pretty sure regular chain mail isn't exactly a cashmere sweater either.

Uhmm... I thought the humour in that sentence would be more obvious...

I am curious, how exactly do you "bring androgyny into the game, or homosexuality"? I ask because I pretty much never bring up heterosexuality in the game. All my characters are, but I never declare it, or make sure NPCs know it, etc. The only time it might come up would be if my character were to find an NPC they wanted to pursue romantically off-screen, which happens rarely.

I mentioned a few things in a previous post. Would you mind taking a quick look? I rather not type the whole thing again.

Did this banter happen only with you, and only with your gay character? In my group we have mercilessly teased party members for verbal slips, sometimes for years on end. One player still gets teased for making a comment about getting his wolf (his ranger's animal companion) a "leather outfit" at one point (he'd wanted barding, as the paladin had just bought some for his mount).

Why do you feel that this was due to you (or more specifically your character's) sexuality, rather than the general raunchiness of the group as a whole?

The level at which it happens is much, much greater and focussed on that character. I haven't felt uncomfortable playing any other character with that group.

I have zero interest in having a gay character. Am I scared of it? No. You don't have to be scared of something to have no interest in doing it. I doubt I'd have to worry about any mockery if I did do it, though. Other than the mockery our group already dishes out regularly.

But you haven't had a gay character. I understand you know your group, but I also think you'd be surprised if you did have a gay character.

If there were a gay player at my table, I think I would put one in. My game worlds pretty much always have modern sensibilities when it comes to men/women despite historical hoo-hah, so I see no reason why there couldn't be a gay monarch somewhere. Thus far I haven't happened to pick up a gay player though, so I haven't.

I see no reason to shoehorn homosexuality into my games when everyone at the table is hetero.

And you think that gay issues only affect gay characters? You think your games wouldn't benefit from bringing something as different as a gay situation into a straight table?

Are you suggesting that someone willing to play a female character but not a gay one is close-minded and intolerant?

I am saying that that could indeed be the case, not that it always is.
 

Topics of gender and sexuality occasional raise their heads in my games, and more often than not, are treated maturely rather than immaturely.

Personally, I've run the gamut of characters - heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/asexual, male/female/third gender, transsexual, crossdressing, etc. Both as a player and a DM.

In world building, I touch on the topic, with some cultures more open to the idea than others.

I don't mind RPing romances, but I tend to do the 'fade to black' for anything explicit.

Every group is different, says Captain Obvious, but I suspect part of my group's maturity on these matters is due to the fact that two of my players are married lesbians, another is bisexual, and at least one is questioning.

A lot of my games are also influenced by ASoIaF, which is quite sexist in places but equal introduces many who go against those social norms, and bloodlines and inheritances tend to be important and convoluted.
 

First off, I'm going to echo that it is human nature.

The women's rights movement didn't change human nature, it raised awareness and gained enough allies to grant them the rights they deserve...

...YET...human nature (as depraved and wrong as it can be) still has the world filled with enough misogyny (of varying degrees) to keep the outcry alive. As you, yourself, pointed out in you opening post, regarding gender equality being a hot topic (paraphrasing for my convenience).

Next, I'm going to say that you have every right to defend yourself from bigotry and persecution. It's the only way to turn the tide, even if you may never stop it.

Finally, I will say that my case is much like the others. I don't game regularly with anyone who is gay, so the topic never comes up. The only gay gamer with whom I've gamed regularly was not open and was probably very reluctant to explore those topics around homophobic players (at least one player was openly and proudly bigoted...no, I no longer game with him and haven't for well over a decade).

Would I be willing to include such topics in my games? Of course, in the right groups. I won't force others out of their comfort zones, as that is not my responsibility. I will, however, gladly play a gay character or have gay themes prevalent in my settings in the right groups.
 
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