Homosexuality in your games

[Janx]

First, thanks for answering. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just wary of one minority group trying to get more than what the majority gets.

If the Suffragettes had thought like that, women wouldn't be able to vote still. If everyone thought the same, we'd be used to take abuse time and time again and do nothing about it.

Forgive me, but I don't have to put up with people being rude because of me being gay. I don't have to "just take it stoically" as someone recently advised. I think I have all my right to defend myself and, since I rarely shout and even more rarely am aggressive (because I am too good at it), at least try to educate and stand my ground.

I might not be big in the universe, but I am still part of it.

As a minority you are going to see more crappy human behavior than I can imagine as a straight white male.

And you can do your best to improve your minorities position in life and the majority's behavior.

But as the guy on the bottom, you gotta accept that some people are gonna step on your back, because they are on top. You can hate it and fight it, but they're gonna do it because they are in the superior position. if you ACTUALLY had the power to prevent or stop it, you wouldn't be the guy on the bottom. Of the pyramid. Like those guys who rose to heights by standing on the backs of others. Not a gay joke.

From all the women who led marches and all that brave stuff to change things, there were also women who were smart enough to keep their mouth shut in the years prior because they understood that it wasn't their time yet and they would suffer worse.

While I'm a kill all the Nazi's kind of guy, sometimes you gotta bide your time and take the whipping.

Not sure I missed it. I just don't consider the importance of being gay to be limited to just having gay sex. True that I don't want to see a straight sex scene, but I don't want to see gay one either.

Having a gay relationship is not just about sex between the members of the relationship

by gay relationship without the sex scene, I assume you mean 2 characters talking and stuff. Kind of like the party does. Since most straight PCs aren't talking to a whole lot of NPCs in any kind of relationship-oriented conversation, this is "uncharted" roleplaying water for most groups. AKA special treatment for your gay PC to get all relationshippy whereas everybody else skips that and gets to killing things or talking about killing things.

No, but you're probably a lot more aware of what the house-wife issues than of your gay neighbour (assuming you have one and know he/she is gay)

I am unaware of my neighbors beyond the ones on either side of my house, actually. And comparitively speaking, I'm downright social. Most folks I know have nothing to do with their neighbors.

Needless to say, depends on what game you're playing.

In my ToC adventure was a gay priest who had been forced into priesthood because it was the only place he had to find some acceptance within society.

If you're gay in a game you might have different clubs you go to. Different contacts. You'll be treated differently by society and maybe you'll have different motivations to do things (like a hate for the police who beat you up).

And how about the relationship with family and friends? Are you a castaway because you've been outed to your 1920's parents?

Do those examples give you a good picture?

Once again, sex stuff. In generic D&D-land, gender roles are downplayed. Anything boys can do, girls can do. Same thing for gay. Generic D&D avoids controversy and downplays the gender-related aspects of true history.

Thus, in Disney Call of Cthulu 1920's nobody cares your care. In the real 1920's you are a commie subversionist and a threat to the American way of life.

In most games, other than dirty jokes, it is more like PCs have no gender, or at least the gender written on the sheet has no bearing on game stats or social encounters.

But there is content for heterosexual issues. There is marriage, brothels, succubae, relationships... The whole thing is built around heterosexual issues!

Nobody plays through that crap. And there's no reason girl Sucubae won't hit on the female PCs in the party. They are kinky that way.

You are citing real world standard components to 2 humans coupling or establing long term coupling rights that don't actually require defined genders AND nobody actually plays through.

Basically, you just listed a bunch of stuff that COULD be in the game, but nobody uses. And nobody ever restricted your gay PC from also participating.

I guess it's rather like being miffed that straight people can be married in the real world, and bringing that into the D&D world, where generally, nobody uses that feature. You may be moping about somethign the rest of us don't want to play out in the game at all, straight or gay.

And why shouldn't gay characters, gods, locales, rituals, situations be available to all players and characters? I am not saying those things should only be enjoyed by gay people!

Why can't you have access to a god that favours characters that establish gay relationships?

Why would I make special Gay gods, when I never made special Straight Gods. Even the Goddess of Love would revolve around the emotion not the male-female coupling act, in my view.

Where you may be seeing exclusion, I simply see lack of specific reference. I'm not gay. I'm not going to think to make certain NPCs gay or add a Gay religion.

I am also not anti-gay. I am not going to make stuff that is explicitly for straight people or against gay people.

Not sure I can agree with that. How many times do you specify how many females are in a group of raiding orcs or goblings, or kobolds? When was the last time you saw a male subbubae, or a male Medusa?

Most of the time, the orcs are male or undeclared because it doesn't occur to me do define them specifically different so I default to my presumed gender roles.

I have personally never GM'd a sucu-anthing or a Medusa. I don't tend to try to seduce my PCs or put myself in a position to have to play that out.

Again, I can't accept that. Every single world setting out there is based around heterosexual archetypes and homosexuality is ignored.

Blue Rose comes to mind as one that doesn't. And that was written by Steve Kenson, a gay writer.

Well, Blue Rose is one of those relationship RPGs with a huge following. I'm being facetious (or sarcastic, I forget which one). As a stereotype, it appeals to women and gay people and people looking to score with the former.

Why does every Disney cartoon feature a child of a single parent? it's hitting a target demographic, a common experience, and a social acceptibility. And in Disney's case, pushing a social agenda. Disney probably did more to further the social cause for children of single parents (by making it feel acceptable).

Gayness is making inroads. There's a token gay guy in every other sitcom now. But it is still strongly opposed by enough people that affect elections badly against them in many places.

Why would you saddle your product with that. Especially one with a low profit margin. Better to simply make a straight game, say nothing about gays so that you can be gay in the game if you want, but we're not going to put a rainbow on the cover.

And my initial point was to ask why. Why the discomfort, why the resistance?

Because Gay has a ways to go, or at least society does. We aren't stoning you or locking you up as a Commie or sterilizing you as a sexual deviant like we did to Alan Turing. We're getting better about not beating you up and calling you names. We're barely comfortable talking about sex with the opposite gender, let alone not making jokes about it. We certainly aren't ready to tell the difference between talking about Gay and having people think we are ourselves Gay.

Give people some space and a chance to grow. Rush them, and they'll get beligerent.

 

[fjw70]

I don't include gayness in my worlds because I simply don't think about it and since my fantasy worlds are somewhat bases on historical Earth gayness really isn't in the forefront of ancient societies.

I know the ancient Greeks and Romans (and probably others) were into homosexuality I am not aware of them marrying and sharing royal titles with their same-sex lovers.

The bottom line is in deviation from the real world in my fantasy worlds have to be a concious choice and I simply do not think about homosexuality very much.

I have no problem with homosexuality. My brother is gay and I support gay marriages (and not because my brother is gay but since I think it is the right thing to do).

If a player in my game wanted to be homosexual then that would be fine with me and he or she would be able to find brothels that satisfied their taste without any problem. I doubt I would have same sex marriages for royal families in my games however. I just don't see a need for that. Heterosexual marriages make sense for bloodlines and such. The King may have a gay lover but he will still be expected to have a Queen (see Remly from Game of Thrones).

 

[Jupp]

Love affairs or sexual encounters in general never played a big role (none, to be exact) in all of our campaigns in the last 20 years since we play. It just wasn't something anyone in our group was interested in while we played (our group has men and women and at one point one couple in it).

But having said that I think that being gay or lesbian doesn't really come into play when you talk about RPGs because one is about who you love and are intrested in and the other is the way you want to play your game. And unless you want to play a campaign that specifically caters to your sexual orientation it just does not matter.

And even if someone gay/lesbian would want to have his orientation to influence the campaign at one point it would not be a probem for us because we do not jugdge people by who they love or would like to make love to (I can only tell about our group here and cannot speak for others, naturally).

As someone else already said, homosexuality is about sexual orientation, not about who you really are as a human being.

 

[S'mon]

Females are (slightly over) half the population. Estimates place homosexuality down around 10%.

Kinsey claimed 10%, but survey data typically shows more like 2-3% identify as homosexual, AIR. Higher for men, lower for women.

 

[Leviatham]

First, thanks for answering. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just wary of one minority group trying to get more than what the majority gets.

If I thought you were a jerk I wouldn't engage in conversation.

For gay people to get more than what the majority gets, we'd have to get the same first. Alas, we don't.

As a minority you are going to see more crappy human behavior than I can imagine as a straight white male.

And you can do your best to improve your minorities position in life and the majority's behavior.

But as the guy on the bottom, you gotta accept that some people are gonna step on your back, because they are on top. You can hate it and fight it, but they're gonna do it because they are in the superior position. if you ACTUALLY had the power to prevent or stop it, you wouldn't be the guy on the bottom. Of the pyramid. Like those guys who rose to heights by standing on the backs of others. Not a gay joke.

From all the women who led marches and all that brave stuff to change things, there were also women who were smart enough to keep their mouth shut in the years prior because they understood that it wasn't their time yet and they would suffer worse.

While I'm a kill all the Nazi's kind of guy, sometimes you gotta bide your time and take the whipping.

Not gonna happen. Been there and almost killed me (literally). I deserve better. Everyone does.

People have died to defend the rights that allow me to get to the street and say I am gay without being arrested.

To stand up for my sexual identity is the least I owe those people.

by gay relationship without the sex scene, I assume you mean 2 characters talking and stuff. Kind of like the party does. Since most straight PCs aren't talking to a whole lot of NPCs in any kind of relationship-oriented conversation, this is "uncharted" roleplaying water for most groups. AKA special treatment for your gay PC to get all relationshippy whereas everybody else skips that and gets to killing things or talking about killing things.[/QUOTE/

Not at all. By gay relationship I also mean the relationship of parents with a gay son/daughter. Or siblings. Or kingdoms.

The potential for plot device by using gay relationships without the need of sexualising them is pretty huge.

I am unaware of my neighbors beyond the ones on either side of my house, actually. And comparitively speaking, I'm downright social. Most folks I know have nothing to do with their neighbors.

Ok... I'll consider my point lost there.

Once again, sex stuff. In generic D&D-land, gender roles are downplayed. Anything boys can do, girls can do. Same thing for gay. Generic D&D avoids controversy and downplays the gender-related aspects of true history.

No, no.. I didn't mention anything to do with sex. It was to do with sexual orientation. Also I was talking about games other than D&D.

Thus, in Disney Call of Cthulu 1920's nobody cares your care. In the real 1920's you are a commie subversionist and a threat to the American way of life.

And that would have consequences that the players could face. Same as for being gay or dealing with a gay foe.

In most games, other than dirty jokes, it is more like PCs have no gender, or at least the gender written on the sheet has no bearing on game stats or social encounters.

Which is ignoring a massive part of the society of the game where you're playing. Specially in games with a resemblance closer to our own world. Homosexuality has existed since ever, including the middle ages!

Nobody plays through that crap.

When appropriate, I do.

And there's no reason girl Sucubae won't hit on the female PCs in the party. They are kinky that way.

And yet, you won't find (as far as I know) a male succubus hitting on guys.

You are citing real world standard components to 2 humans coupling or establing long term coupling rights that don't actually require defined genders AND nobody actually plays through.

Nop. Don't think that being gay doesn't have an impact on the way you see non-sexual relationships.

And I do play through those things. In fact, there are games out there that work around playing that sort of stuff. Annalise springs to mind.

Basically, you just listed a bunch of stuff that COULD be in the game, but nobody uses. And nobody ever restricted your gay PC from also participating.
I guess it's rather like being miffed that straight people can be married in the real world, and bringing that into the D&D world, where generally, nobody uses that feature. You may be moping about somethign the rest of us don't want to play out in the game at all, straight or gay.

I think quite a few people use them. At least in the groups around where I am. I wonder if the difference of character approach between different countries has something to do with it.

Why would I make special Gay gods, when I never made special Straight Gods. Even the Goddess of Love would revolve around the emotion not the male-female coupling act, in my view.

And yet she'd be a goddess. Not a god of love.

You don't need to make special straight gods because they *are* straight by default. Again, who many relationships between gods do you know that are gay and how many that are straight?

Where you may be seeing exclusion, I simply see lack of specific reference. I'm not gay. I'm not going to think to make certain NPCs gay or add a Gay religion.

I feel you contradict yourself there somewhat. You say there is simply a lack of specific reference, but you also say you're not intending to make them. There is certain implication that because you're not gay, you don't want to contemplate it. I might be reading you wrong there, please correct me if that is the case.

I am also not anti-gay. I am not going to make stuff that is explicitly for straight people or against gay people.

Actually, why not? What would it be like if your character were hired by a homophobe to track down anyone who's gay in a city and kill them?

If they decide to take the thing on board, later the players could find that the employer just wants to get rid of a few people in the city to eliminate enemies and expand his/her sphere of influence.

Most of the time, the orcs are male or undeclared because it doesn't occur to me do define them specifically different so I default to my presumed gender roles.

And that is a key sentence: "presume gender roles".

I have personally never GM'd a sucu-anthing or a Medusa. I don't tend to try to seduce my PCs or put myself in a position to have to play that out.

I have. My players have had to face a succubus who started to seduce them to try and steal a powerful artefact they had retrieved from an ancient ruin.

Well, Blue Rose is one of those relationship RPGs with a huge following. I'm being facetious (or sarcastic, I forget which one). As a stereotype, it appeals to women and gay people and people looking to score with the former.

Now now... sarcasm? Tutt tutt!

Gayness is making inroads. There's a token gay guy in every other sitcom now. But it is still strongly opposed by enough people that affect elections badly against them in many places.

And do we have to be the same in RPGs. Do we have to conform? Can't we be better than that?

Why would you saddle your product with that. Especially one with a low profit margin. Better to simply make a straight game, say nothing about gays so that you can be gay in the game if you want, but we're not going to put a rainbow on the cover.

Which is a very, very sad state of affairs that doesn't have to be static.

Because Gay has a ways to go, or at least society does. We aren't stoning you or locking you up as a Commie or sterilizing you as a sexual deviant like we did to Alan Turing. We're getting better about not beating you up and calling you names. We're barely comfortable talking about sex with the opposite gender, let alone not making jokes about it. We certainly aren't ready to tell the difference between talking about Gay and having people think we are ourselves Gay.

Give people some space and a chance to grow. Rush them, and they'll get beligerent.

Oh, I am not rushing anyone. You will not hear/read me rally people to sign petitions to WotC to include gay stuff in D&D 5th Ed.

But you will hear me raise awareness and, hopefully, making people think.

 

[Sammael]

I am not likely to play a homosexual character. Not because I am not comfortable with the concept, but because I dislike the exaggerated stereotype that this character would inevitably become if his sexual orientation were to play a part in the campaign. All RPG characters are parodies and exaggerations to a certain extent, after all, and this one would all too easily turn into a parody of himself. OTOH, if sex is not a big part of the campaign, then it makes even less sense to push that particular point just to be inclusive.

BTW, I have played gay NPCs (I do try to include them, particularly in large cities, to reflect the diversity that becomes more obvious in such environments). One of the players in one of my campaigns is playing an omnisexual character and I don't have a problem with that (though other players joke about it all the time). Another one is playing an asexual human character. That's fine too.

 

[Leviatham]

As someone else already said, homosexuality is about sexual orientation, not about who you really are as a human being.

Forgive me, but that affirmation is so naive that is painful to read.

 

[Leviatham]

Kinsey claimed 10%, but survey data typically shows more like 2-3% identify as homosexual, AIR. Higher for men, lower for women.

Finding out who identifies as homosexual is not a credible or accurate benchmark to measure numbers.

 

[Leviatham]

I am not likely to play a homosexual character. Not because I am not comfortable with the concept, but because I dislike the exaggerated stereotype that this character would inevitably become if his sexual orientation were to play a part in the campaign. All RPG characters are parodies and exaggerations to a certain extent, after all, and this one would all too easily turn into a parody of himself. OTOH, if sex is not a big part of the campaign, then it makes even less sense to push that particular point just to be inclusive.

And does that have to be the case? We are the ones who exaggerate the stereotype, mostly because is the only way we know how to play them.

There is nothing out there that forces us to play that way and we could change that if we wanted to.

BTW, I have played gay NPCs (I do try to include them, particularly in large cities, to reflect the diversity that becomes more obvious in such environments). One of the players in one of my campaigns is playing an omnisexual character and I don't have a problem with that (though other players joke about it all the time). Another one is playing an asexual human character. That's fine too.

Which is, my friend, just as it should be!

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

The subject of sexism in games is pretty hot. At least in the circles where I move, there is quite a vocal community of both men and women who are, basically, sick and fed up with the abuse of the male and female forms in art depictions and roles within a RPGs, fantasy and Sci-Fi art.

Yep. Despise abuses of male and female forms in art. But careful with that brush. It gets awfuly wide and slops a lot of paint. Give me examples and contexts and I might or might not agree.

The thing that frustrates me is that, no matter how many people become vocal about it, it keeps happening. Maybe is because many people in the games industry try to justify it with "it's what the public wants, so we have to give it to them", or maybe is because some artist pander towards a fantasy from the mind of someone who's got a part of that mind still stuck in puberty. I don't know.

Maybe it's a question that does not have simple answers. There's not just the artists choice of subject matter, poses, and what all but the choices of the art directors who select that art over different images and then the sensibilities of INDIVIDUALS who view that art.

The thing is that we still see chain mail bikinis. Do you people have any idea how uncomfortable they are? Seriously, after wearing them for a while, nipples hurt like mad!

I don't necessarily disagree - but who gets to be the censor who determines what _I_ am able to view objectively?

See, I'm a reasonably mature adult (definitely in age, somewhat less so in attitude ) Are we talking about what _I_ should be viewing, or what a 12 year old should be viewing? Game materials are sold to both. Don't be condemning the larger gaming community about art content because we haven't strung up art directors who are still choosing chainmail bikini artwork.

So it is pretty clear that we have a long way to go.

For what? Tame, family-friendly art throughout all gaming publications? Parental supervision over the media consumption of their children? Alterations of societal attitudes towards sex to be universal and conforming to one persons dictates? Redefinition of what RPG fantasy gaming is or is not allowed to be?

However when I bring androgyny into the game, or homosexuality, or trans-gender characters, all hell breaks loose.

I'll put it this way: For myself, I do not prominently feature sexuality in my games for the same reason I would not inquire into the sexuality of my players. I do not run D&D and other RPGs for players to openly explore questions of sexuality, hetero- or otherwise. If for some reason it should come up in game and need to be dealt with on anything more than a superficial basis then I suppose it would be dealt with as such and then in all likelihood left behind.

It really isn't a question I've had to deal with and don't see any reason why I should need to go out of my way to establish some kind of personal policy on. I haven't had a game that has dealt with sex beyond the visitation of brothels, and once or twice a sex change cursed item. When I get a player who wishes to prominently and actively define a character by their sexual orientation and not just picking M/F I hope it will be for some reason OTHER than to simply keep that fact a preeminent topic in gameplay.

The fact that it didn't matter how many orcs I killed and how well I did for the party, what was left behind was the mockery.

That's quite unfortunate and allow me to convey my sympathies - but this, frankly, is not an issue regarding D&D. It would be an issue regarding the individual concerned and the attitudes of his/her so-called gaming friends. It is a an issue between real individuals seated at a table but I don't see it as a topic the game itself needs to address in any way.

How many people don't bother exploring what having a gay character would be like?

I should think at least as many as those who don't bother exploring a character whose gender is opposite their own.

How many people are still scared of trying that out? And how much mockery and stupid banter do you have to put up with if you do?

Again, an issue for you and those at YOUR game table, as it would be an issue for me and mine to come to grips with should it arise at our table.

So far the responses I've got have been in the lines of "I've never done it but it's never been an issue" or "I even wanted my character and Alistair to hit it up in Dragon Age", missing the point: You haven't considered playing a gay character but you have considered playing a female one. Why?

I hope I phrase this as I wish it to be understood: Do not presume to tell someone else what kind of characters they should play nor what aspects of their character they should explore. Their character should not be an issue you need to concern yourself about unless the characters behavior is something you find obnoxious and/or offensive in game or out. Then it becomes a subject needing mature discussion among players and with DM's if there is a need for some enforcement of at-table attitude adjustment.

And homosexuality gets largely ignored in world creation too.

Nobody has an obligation to openly deal with questions of character sexuality, PC or NPC. Again, given the question of the very wide spread in age and maturity of intended customers for RPG products, to say nothing of their utterly unknowable real-world mores, beliefs, and practices there is good motivation to decidedly ignore the subject and just leave it to the individual DM and table to grapple with as they see fit.

Why are we readier to accept and/or play a female character than a transgender or a gay one? Are we really as open minded and tolerant as we like to believe?

Male and female are distinctions that have existed since humans became self-aware. On a clock scale between that time and today, the OPEN engagement of questions of human sexuality beyond male and female gender is not even a single tick. Engagement of questions of race is only slightly longer and though I believe humanity as a whole has made progress in that area as well, it too is a subject that is FAR from decided.

I still think the subject of sexuality is less a question that the gaming community needs to grapple with and more a concern with individual conduct at YOUR game table.