D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

I have a PhD in Chemistry, and have taken courses in quantum chemistry and polymeric chemistry, so I am used to seeing math tortured and twisted to suit an end.

But the 4E fighter HP example in this thread is an impressive example of Bad Math. I mean, beyond the ignoring of the limitations the rules place on how many healing surges you can use in an encounter, to then turn around and say that you can't use the healing HPs available to the 3.X fighter and count the same way is mind-boggling.
 

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Agreed on all points, here. The HP inflation isn't really the main difference between low & high-level 4e play. It's the characters' increased breadth and capability to handle more situations.

I also find that, at mid-Paragon, I generally need to stick to L+1 or L+2 encounters to make a reasonable challenge. Again, largely because of the PCs' breadth and their ability to deal out condition-driven pain.

-O

Yup. Agreed. This will vary by table (different players have different acumen) and group synergy and optimization. Tables with high acument players who optimize their PCs and group synergy will need even higher than L + 1 or L + 2 as remedial/entry encounters. You would think this would be self-evident but it doesn't appear to be. I'm sure some tables have to amp up to L + 3 as remedial and treat L + 5 (aggregate challenge XP...not actual level) as boss (or higher).

This, again is why some of the things that I read baffle me and bear no resemblance to what I experience DMing 4e games. HP inflation has little (or nothing) to do with PC potency/survivability in 4e. As we just outlined, its activatable abilities (DR and temp HPs) and negative status effect/action denial that wonks the action economy of monsters and BBEGs. This is why most of the tweaks to the system of Paragon and higher (bosses being able to dismiss action denial, etc) must be performed through the action economy angle of play rather than HP attrition angle (Upper Krust's stuff). If you're going to rein in PCs survivability, its not their HPs that need adjusting downward, its the breadth and potency of their deployable resources (or you have to do it by proxy of buffing monsters...the "more fun" way to do it).
 

And I'm sure that above statement (by an advocate) may go into the internet pipeline and at some point turn into a "See, see, 4e isn't balanced either...you have to fix stuff at Paragon and Epic tier." Yes, I agree, as power and resource breadth proliferates, 4e does get more "unwieldy" (just as in prior editions). It is not without its warts and scars (I have grievances aplenty). However, "unwieldy" 4e Paragon and Epic tier play is a relative walk in the park without any adjustments to standard encounter formula and making it more "wieldy" is extremely intuitive and primarily within RAW conceits (up remedial encounters from L to L + 1 to L + 2 and boss encounters from L + 3 to L + 5). If you want to go further, you can use some "Upper Krust type" Action Economy adjustments to Solos and Elites. The game-breaking deployable resources are siloed within high level Rituals and, even then, are considerably less punitive toward game scope (Exploration and Social) functionality (Phantom Steed notwithstanding).
 

But the 4E fighter HP example in this thread is an impressive example of Bad Math. I mean, beyond the ignoring of the limitations the rules place on how many healing surges you can use in an encounter, to then turn around and say that you can't use the healing HPs available to the 3.X fighter and count the same way is mind-boggling.
The trick is limiting it to first level. Once Wands of Cure Light Wounds come into it, 3.x characters can be walking around with thousands of hps. But, at 1st, the few CLWs the party cleric can cast represent relatively little daily healing compared to healing surges. The upshot of that is just to extend the adventuring 'day.' 4e characters can handle several encounters a day, and they all have dailies to manage over the course of that day. 1st level characters in prior eds could have trouble handling even two encounters, and could even spend a week recuperating between encounters if someone got dropped in each (1e optional rules on healing after being reduced to negative hps).

Those are pacing issues, and D&D has wobbled around when it comes to what sort of campaign pacing it works best with. Pacing in low-level classic D&D tended to be slow, you had one or a few fairly minor fights or traps or whatever and left the dungeon to recover for days. At higher levels, you could get through a lot more action in a day, and were less likely to get knocked out and have to spend that extra week getting over it, but once your casters were well and truly tapped out, it could take them /over/ a full day just to rest and re-memorize all their spells. In 3e, the 5MWD was extremely do-able and over-rewarded. In 4e, the 5MWD was less problematic - everyone benefited from it so it stopped being a class balance issue, but it remained a pacing, encounter balance, and even 'verisimilitude' issue (it's not very heroic to take a 6 hour nap after every real fight).

5e could make a big improvement by being more flexible with campaign pacing: allowing DMs to have encounters be rare and days apart or come fast and furious without trashing class or encounter balance.
 

Thanks for the number-crunching.
Yes, 4e monsters with a lot of hit points can generally bring the pain. (At least post Monster Manual 3 - the MM1 Purple Worm is a disgrace).
Are the numbers you used from the original 4e MM or the later one?

All I have for any edition (except 1e) are the originals.
Tony Vargas said:
5e could make a big improvement by being more flexible with campaign pacing: allowing DMs to have encounters be rare and days apart or come fast and furious without trashing class or encounter balance.
Or without worrying about it too much. In fact, one option might be to have a few classes do better when things come fast and furious and a few others do better when things are nicely spaced out; then let each DM find what works for her group and-or just mix it up over time.

Lanefan
 

Thanks for the number-crunching.Are the numbers you used from the original 4e MM or the later one?

Monster Vault. Damage was too low in the MM1 across the board (the hill giant would still have the same number of hit points but be doing 9 points of damage less) and this was a common complaint for a reason. At low level the standard monsters were workable - solos were not. And the difference in solo design is night and day - the MM1 Purple Worm is unusable, and probably the worst monster in MM1. See also the MV Elder Red Dragon for something terrifying. (Or the Flesh Golem and Vampire).
 
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4e monsters with a lot of hit points can generally bring the pain.
I think I mentioned a recent hydra fight upthread. The PCs, in the first three or so rounds of combat, delivered about 500 points of damage to it, and took out one of its three salamander guards and bloodied the other two on the way there. Those 500 points were enough to take out two of its four heads, and at each point they were able to use cold damage to stop it growing two new heads instead.

But - having shaken off the various dazing, blinding and other action denial/debuff affects on it (I am using a combination of the MM and MV Many-headed traits, and applying them to blindness also, to give my hydra a chance against my action-denying party) - it was able to actually spend an action point on its turn for useful effect, getting 6 attacks against the fighter - four bites for 4d10+10 and two fire breaths for a bit less than that. And it dropped the fighter from 105 to -62 (just above -ve bloodied) with those attacks.

The invoker was able to slide the fighter out through a temporary teleport portal, and he will be healed to consciousness but probably unable to rejoin the melee combat. The paladin, with better AC (plate rather than scale, heavy shield, and meliorating armour one milestone into the day), will probably fare better, but is also wondering how long he'll be able to hold off the hydra onslaught! And it still has an action point unexpended.

There is no doubt in my mind that solos with some ability to handle action denial can bring the pain!

Tables with high acument players who optimize their PCs and group synergy will need even higher than L + 1 or L + 2 as remedial/entry encounters.

<snip>

HP inflation has little (or nothing) to do with PC potency/survivability in 4e. As we just outlined, its activatable abilities (DR and temp HPs) and negative status effect/action denial that wonks the action economy of monsters and BBEGs.

<snip>

If you're going to rein in PCs survivability, its not their HPs that need adjusting downward, its the breadth and potency of their deployable resources (or you have to do it by proxy of buffing monsters...the "more fun" way to do it).
This fit's with my experience too. My PCs just reached level 18. They are on their sixth encounter since the last extended rest - they started the day at level 17.

First there was a level 18 encounter against two 22nd level Death Giants and a level 17 Eidolon. This also involved the invoker spending a healing surge for a Knock ritual. On the whole, an easy encounter.

Then there was a level 21 encounter against a 19th level solo Beholder, a 17th level elite Beholder Eye of Flame, and a 15th level elite Roper. The terrain for this fight was incredibly punishing for the PCs - a chasm with a 200' drop to an underground river, that the Beholder pushed both ranged strikers into. (Amusingly, after being knocked back down again after making it most of the way up, the ranger ended up killing the Beholder with twin strikes shot while standing on a ledge next to the river.) I described this combat in more detail here. This encounter got the PCs up to 18th.

Then there were three minor encounters - a single fungal hazard dealt with by the ranger while expanding an overgrown, abandoned duergar farm, and a couple of skill challenges. The first, which had been commenced back at 17th level and involved navigating through the underdark, failed, and the PC fighter ended up falling through thing stone into the underground river the duergar had relied upon to irrigate their fungi. This then triggered another skill challenge for the party to recover the fighter and regroup successfully in the river, and they succeeded at that.

Then, for a couple of reasons, they proceeded further downriver (on Phantom Steeds) to where they encountered the hydra. So far they have been dealing with this as a 21st level enounter - 18th solo hydra and 3 16th level salamanders, one elite. But reinforcements are now arriving - two 17th level salamander archers, and 4 archons of 17th and 18th level, which will take the level of the whole encounter up to 23. For a party low on surges and dailies after the punishing fight with the beholders, this may be too much - I am anticipating a possible retreat downriver. But they have pulled off pretty surprising victories before, so it's a bit too early to judge. (If they kill the hydra, they may also try to cow the elementals into submission.)

It's not hard to create a real sense of threat and drama in 4e - you just have to use the tools at your fingertips (and, in my experience at least, generally widen your encounter, in terms of numbers of foes, rather than just upping the level, which can make the maths grind if you're not careful).

"See, see, 4e isn't balanced either...you have to fix stuff at Paragon and Epic tier." Yes, I agree, as power and resource breadth proliferates, 4e does get more "unwieldy" (just as in prior editions).

<snip>

The game-breaking deployable resources are siloed within high level Rituals and, even then, are considerably less punitive toward game scope (Exploration and Social) functionality (Phantom Steed notwithstanding).
Phantom Steed is very strong, and I can see how in an exploration-oriented game you'd probably just want to ditch it altogether.

But I haven't found paragon hard to GM at all. The tools are powerful and, for me at least, easy to use. I'm told that epic is harder because the players' action denial abilities grow almost without bound. If that turns out to be so, however, I think I'll be able to handle it by building solos more carefully, and by doing the same thing as I do now: more foes, less rest, more pressure.
 

Not sure what the last gazillon posts has to do with the original premise.
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Hit point inflation, and what the various heal/rest mechanics changes have brought version-to-version, are one of the things that might coinceivably be "rolled back" to a particular version.

If you want to consider that, you need to look a little deeper at what is going on. How hit points have changed over editions is more subtle than reading off the numbers.

It's not purely an economic meaning of inflation, where numbers go up, but nothing else much changes.

It's also not a power-creep inflation where numbers have gone up because players naturally want their characters to have bigger numbers.

To me, the hit point totals appear to be a relatively free parameter that various designers and writers have moved around to try and achieve things with the game. I have no problem with the numbers looking like anything from 1e to 4e inside D&D Next, provided the 5E designers are also looking at it this way, and have a goal in mind other than hitting some magic number range for nostalgia value. (And in fact even that goal is OK, provided it is secondary to delivering a workable game).
 

@pemerton

Yup. I read your post in that thread. The beholder fight over the underground river was an exceedingly well contrived fight (and seemed to live up to expectations) from the reading of your post.

What I was attempting to do there was a pre-emptive parry of a rejoinder (a misconstruance) that I foresaw as inevitable. I, in no way agree with the rejoinder but I figured I should comment before that one got away from me. 4e is in no way "unwieldy". Not in Paragon tier or Epic tier. However, inevitably (due to complexities added into the system), the mode of play becomes more complex and thus "more unwieldy by comparison". However, in the hands of proficient players/DMs, it is a delight and the unwieldiness of Paragon and Epic tier (relative to early Heroic) is unnoticeable when you come from prior D & D iterations. What's more, there are great features of 4e that actually help with the "relative unwieldiness."

For instance, (and after reading your post above you have already considered and used much/most of those tools so oncoming Epic tier play shouldn't be an issue for you) there are very effective tools in place to deal with the action economy manipulation proliferation of PCs as the game progresses (and their means to mitigate damage):

1 - Challenge the PCs with more hazards (fantastical and mundane). These can be intra-encounter or extra-encounter. Stun, Weakened and Blind conditions are almost universally irrelevant here.

2 - The environments that PCs will be navigating are likely extra-planar in nature or remote, toxic and/or extremely inhospitable. Create environmental conditions inherent to these environments that are either constantly in effect or use the Condition Track and subject the PCs to things daily. Something as simple/mundane as a low oxygen or extreme humidity environment should be extraordinarily taxing, even for the most well-conditioned. Something as simple as claiming 1 surge from all the PCs (no save) while in an environment is simple but effective. Especially coupled with keeping the heat on with hazards and encounters. If you want more complexity and a greater threat just use the Condition Track.

3 - Physically taxing Skill Challenge Failures that cost Healing Surges.

I've run a campaign through level 26 and those 3 (which, to me, are quite intuitive) are extremely effective as they keep the pressure on PCs through HS attrition (while they endure other stressors), utility encounter power attrition (to deal with these threats and mitigate nonsentient hostility/damage) and by leveraging threats outside of the action economy (where a large source of their power proliferation comes from).
 

Also, Phantom Steed is relatively ok when not abused. Its Arcana requirements, and implicit accompanying effects by tier, are reasonable. The only problem is when you have racial, background, theme, magic item, skill mastery, skill power, etc Arcana bonus synergy + good skill roll when using it at low Paragon tier to gain Epic tier scores and the accompanying multiple flying mounts for long duration. That is probably the one area of 4e where the system has the potential to break down - optimization and exploiting synergy to create absurdly high Arcana bonsues and rolls for rituals where the expectation is that there is a "soft ceiling" that constrains the effects by tier.
 

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