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Fighter, Rogue, Blaster, Healer . . . Balanced?

Didn't 4e try the other way around, i.e. give more to the Fighter?

Indeed. As did "Book of 9 Swords", as does 5e with its Expertise Dice. And, actually, Malhavoc's "Book of Iron Might" (by one M. Mearls) could perhaps be seen as another attempt at the same.

It would be nice to try and design 3.x Fighter-only feats (i.e. feats which require "Fighter level X" just like Weapon Specialization did) that scale geometrically like supposedly Wizard's spells do.

This is actually a really good idea. Though they don't even need to be Fighter-only feats - just make sure they build up in feat chains, and the fact that nobody else gains many feats will act as an effective limit. Indeed, I'm not convinced that even Weapon Specialisation and the like really need to be limited to Fighter-only.
 

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"Book of 9 Swords"

The best thing to come out of 3.5. I was really iffy at first, but then it wound up just being so much fun! That it evened out the imbalance between casties and fighties wasn't relevant, I only cared that fighties were fun.

This is actually a really good idea. Though they don't even need to be Fighter-only feats - just make sure they build up in feat chains, and the fact that nobody else gains many feats will act as an effective limit. Indeed, I'm not convinced that even Weapon Specialisation and the like really need to be limited to Fighter-only.

Fighter only or not, I still think they should scale by level. At level one, +1 to attacks and +2 to damage is significant, but by level 20 not so much.
 

An interesting idea, but it doesn't solve dead levels. Even still, what do you have in mind? Could they buy tricks to use in melee which are comparable to spells in utility or power (either).

Part of the issue is that the game really has a single Wizard class with lots of different ways to specialise (either by formally being a Specialist Wizard... or even just by choosing a particular subset of spells), whereas all the many "Specialist Fighters" are actually classes in their own right - Barbarian, Monk, even Rogue (plus Swashbuckler, Samurai, Scout...). Before going far down this road, it's worth considering whether some or all of those classes shouldn't be eliminated and their powers turned into feat chains.

(Note that while the Sorcerer is also an arcane spellcaster, it is differentiated from the Wizard not by having a different set of powers available, but rather by using a different spellcasting method.)

The best thing to come out of 3.5. I was really iffy at first, but then it wound up just being so much fun! That it evened out the imbalance between casties and fighties wasn't relevant, I only cared that fighties were fun.

I loved that book in theory, but hated it in practice. Such a good idea, but implemented so badly! (Unfortunately, like a lot of the later 3.5e books, it didn't even pretend to be balanced with what had gone before, and instead went for an outright power-boost. Given that my preference was very strongly in favour of the lower level of early-3.5e, this was very much not for me. I would much have preferred a reining-in of the excesses of spellcasters, rather than a boost for everyone else.)

Fighter only or not, I still think they should scale by level. At level one, +1 to attacks and +2 to damage is significant, but by level 20 not so much.

You're right about that. It's a weakness of the feats system that some feats give static bonuses (and so become less useful with level) while others do not (and so become more useful with level). If a Fighter's feats are indeed supposed to be his compensation for the Barbarian getting Greater Rage, the Rogue getting +10d6 Sneak Attack, and the Wizard getting Wish, they should be equivalently impressive.
 

Part of the issue is that the game really has a single Wizard class with lots of different ways to specialise (either by formally being a Specialist Wizard... or even just by choosing a particular subset of spells), whereas all the many "Specialist Fighters" are actually classes in their own right - Barbarian, Monk, even Rogue (plus Swashbuckler, Samurai, Scout...). Before going far down this road, it's worth considering whether some or all of those classes shouldn't be eliminated and their powers turned into feat chains.

...or make them "fighter specializations" like there are wizard specializations.

The original Fighter class of early D&D created a bunch of spin-offs, the problem being that each of them is always quite rigidly defined, with several "signature" abilities (not normally available to others) but then only little flexibility.

It is the same as if there was an Illusionist class, an Evoker class, a Diviner class etc. and illusion spells were available only to the Illusionist, energy spells to the Evoker and so on. And the Wizard class had access to just the generic spells like Detect Magic, Dispel Magic and other spells that don't fit strongly into one category, but then again making all this generic stuff also available to the spin-off specialists, with the only difference that the Wizard would have more of them.

This is more or less what arcane spellcasters would be if their classes were treated like the Fighter and its spin-offs are treated in design. The the Wizard would be in the same position as the Fighter, no schtik of his own.

But playing a "versatile" Wizard is an absolutely valid choice, and in fact it's possibly been the most wanted type of Wizard PC in D&D, hence we rather get a Wizard class that has access to ALL arcane spells, and specialists are in-class options (like schools or traditions) plus occasionally also a spin-off class but only a few years after the core is published.

One way to deal with this problem, is to just have one Fighter class in the game, and make Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Swashbuckler into subclasses/specialists based on "feats" or "manuvers" (or else, doesn't matter at this point) that the Fighter can anyway access. There can be exceptions such as feats/maneuvers exclusive to one of those subclasses, but not many just as there aren't normally many (in fact, any!) spells unavailable to the generalist Wizard. Or there can be unique features associated to each subclass just like there are now for each wizard tradition.

Another way to deal with this problem is how 3e (accidentally...) did: by making multiclassing work for martial classes but not for spellcasters, but I really don't think anybody considers this a very elegant solution :D
 

...or make them "fighter specializations" like there are wizard specializations.

Actually, I'd be inclined to go the other way. If I were rewriting 3e, one of the first things I would cut would be the Specialist Wizard rules. Instead, I would have two feats:

Lesser Specialisation: gives the +1 to save DCs from the Spell Focus feat, plus the +2 to Spellcraft checks that Specialist Wizards currently get. (Replaces Spell Focus. And a character can only specialise in one school.)

Greater Specialisation: grants the +1 spell/level/day currently gained by Specialist Wizards. (Requires the corresponding Lesser Specialisation feat.)

I would also be inclined to turn Summon Familiar/Improve Familiar/Greater Familiar into a feat chain.

(I would also adjust the Sorcerer so that the only difference between Wizard and Sorcerer was the different spellcasting. So, the Sorcerer would get the same Bonus Feat progression. I believe they already have the same skills, BAB and save progressions, and familiar progression, so that's a minor change.)

The original Fighter class of early D&D created a bunch of spin-offs, the problem being that each of them is always quite rigidly defined, with several "signature" abilities (not normally available to others) but then only little flexibility.

It is the same as if there was an Illusionist class, an Evoker class, a Diviner class etc. and illusion spells were available only to the Illusionist, energy spells to the Evoker and so on. And the Wizard class had access to just the generic spells like Detect Magic, Dispel Magic and other spells that don't fit strongly into one category, but then again making all this generic stuff also available to the spin-off specialists, with the only difference that the Wizard would have more of them.

Yes, exactly. Indeed, the Psionics rules do exactly that, although there are a lot of 'generic' powers and relatively few 'specialist' powers. Indeed, it's not entirely out of line with the Cleric's Domains, as well, although those tend not to give unique spells.

But playing a "versatile" Wizard is an absolutely valid choice, and in fact it's possibly been the most wanted type of Wizard PC in D&D, hence we rather get a Wizard class that has access to ALL arcane spells, and specialists are in-class options (like schools or traditions) plus occasionally also a spin-off class but only a few years after the core is published.

Indeed. WotC (and Paizo) are now in something of a tricky position - Wizards and Clerics have access to this huge range of abilities, and any measure to reduce their access would be met with massive resistance (because nobody likes losing powers). The consequence is that there really isn't much room for more specialised spin-off classes*, or even variant 'magic' systems such as Psionics or Incarnum - pretty much anything they could do is something that one of the other classes can already do, and at the lowest level where it might be considered balance.

* That said, I really like what WotC did with the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, at least in concept.

One way to deal with this problem, is to just have one Fighter class in the game, and make Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Swashbuckler into subclasses/specialists based on "feats" or "manuvers" (or else, doesn't matter at this point) that the Fighter can anyway access. There can be exceptions such as feats/maneuvers exclusive to one of those subclasses, but not many just as there aren't normally many (in fact, any!) spells unavailable to the generalist Wizard. Or there can be unique features associated to each subclass just like there are now for each wizard tradition.

My preference would be to not have unique features, but rather to grant the specialist either earlier access to 'signature' abilities, or simply to grant them more such abilities - the same way that the Wizard specialist doesn't get access to specialist-only spells, but does get more spells per day.

I would also prefer to keep the Paladin and Ranger (and a potential Mageblade) separate - these classes are effectively hybrids with one of the spellcasting classes, and I think there's considerable merit in keeping that distinct. Unless, that is, you have a strong enough multiclassing system to make such a thing redundant.

(Of course, the problem with all of this is that before you go too far you're already into heavy rewrites of the system. Unfortunately, there are enough areas of 3.5e that I find problematic that if I were going to invest that much effort in house rules, I would be sorely tempted to just rewrite the whole thing instead!)
 

If the player of the Wizard or the Cleric want to break the game, then no amount of restricting of their spell lists will fix that - the game will never be balanced.

If, however, you have a bunch of players who aren't obsessed with optimising, explicitly don't want to break your game, and just want to play... you'll have a pretty balanced game. And that applies whether you restrict the casters or not.

A little loose use of terms here. Broken and unbalanced are by no means interchangeable. As you said, if none of the Players want to mess the game up, it won't happen, but giant gaps between their respective powers(that is, the lack of balance) are still annoying or worse, as long as there is but a small bit of combat in the campaign.
 

I had heard that the 3.5 game is more balanced if you have the "fab 4" of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard, but the Wizard is restricted to blasting spells (and say read magic) and the cleric is restricted to healing spells (including also things like remove paralysis, neutralize poison, raise dead, restoration, etc.).

Has anyone tried this? Would that make the game more balanced?

From my reading of the books I always had the impression that this was the sort of play that the developers had anticipated. Fighter up front; rogue flanking; wizard dropping fireballs; cleric keeping everyone on their feet.

However, the biggest thing that keeps the game balanced is just making sure that the players are all on the same page with optimization and what's acceptable.
 

A little loose use of terms here. Broken and unbalanced are by no means interchangeable.

No indeed. A little laziness on my part.

As you said, if none of the Players want to mess the game up, it won't happen, but giant gaps between their respective powers(that is, the lack of balance) are still annoying or worse, as long as there is but a small bit of combat in the campaign.

Well... I would argue that those giant gaps in powers are indeed an instance of brokenness.

The counter-example I'll give is my current campaign which has just reached 11th level, and in which the Artificer is clearly much more capable than the Rogue. However, the player of the Artificer has deliberately chosen to focus on 'fun' aspects of his character rather than 'power' aspects. The theoretical imbalance is still there, of course, but the way it's played means that in effect those two characters are roughly balanced.

Of course, it's purely the nature of our group that nobody gets annoyed about that. I can entirely understand if YMMV.
 

Well... I would argue that those giant gaps in powers are indeed an instance of brokenness.
GAH! You're doing it again!

The counter-example I'll give is my current campaign which has just reached 11th level, and in which the Artificer is clearly much more capable than the Rogue. However, the player of the Artificer has deliberately chosen to focus on 'fun' aspects of his character rather than 'power' aspects. The theoretical imbalance is still there, of course, but the way it's played means that in effect those two characters are roughly balanced.
Quite right! Some people don't realize the Tier system assumes the listed classes are optimized to the same degree. That's why Incarnates are usually put in Tier 4 even though they are uncomparably horrible with a careless feat selection. My favourite build was/is a Tier 3 Wizard-based gish who specializes in Shadows and Phantasms, and had, as an NPC, his ass delivered to him by the party's Warlock.
 
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GAH! You're doing it again!

Nope, that one was deliberate. You'll agree, I hope, that at least one way something can be broken is by being seriously unbalanced?

Quite right! Some people don't realize the Tier system assumes the listed classes are optimized to the same degree. That's why Incarnates are usually put in Tier 4 even though they are uncomparably horrible with a careless feat selection. My favourite build was/is a Tier 3 Wizard-based gish who specializes in Shadows and Phantasms, and had, as an NPC, his ass delivered to him by the party's Warlock.

Eh, what? What "tier system"? I'm afraid you've completely lost me.

Or is this some sort of CharOp thing?
 

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