magic item pricing

[Sunseeker]

I am a little confused on magic item pricing and the resulting enhancement.

If I read things correctly, an item with a "+3 price", starts at the +3 pricing range(18k) for a +1 enhancement.
So:
+3 price means:
+1 enh for +3 cost
+2 enh for +4 cost
+3 enh for +5 cost
etc...

But I'm not sure that's correct. Part of me thinks that each enhancement increment nets a +3 cost, in this case, +3 cost would mean:
+1 for +3
+2 for +6
+3 for +9
etc...

And finally, the more hopeful and frugal part of me wants to say +3 cost means that the item cannot start below a +3 enhancement:
+1 is unavailable
+2 is unavailable
+3 where the item starts.

So, help me out folks, what does "+3 price" actually mean?

 

[billd91]

What's the context? Source that we can look at for the original wording?

 

[Sunseeker]

What's the context? Source that we can look at for the original wording?

Basically any weapon enchantment with a base price of more than +1.

Since I've got the PFSRD open, examples are like Speed, Holy, etc..

 

[billd91]

The way weapon pricing works, you have to pay for the enhancement bonus of the weapon (+1 to +5) and add on the bonus equivalent of any special ability. For example, a +1 keen weapon would get its price from the +2 line on the table (8,000 gp) because it's +1 for the enhancement bonus and +1 for the bonus equivalent of the keen ability. Each weapon must have a minimum of a +1 enhancement bonus to add any special abilities.

In the case of the +3 bonus you're asking about, if the special ability is a +3 bonus, you have to look at the +4 line for price if you tack that ability on a +1 weapon. So you'd be looking at a 32,000 gp market price for the weapon.

A +2 flaming holy long sword would price out on the +5 line - +2 for the weapon's enhancement bonus, +1 for flaming, and then +2 more for holy. 50,000 gp.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Sunseeker]

The way weapon pricing works, you have to pay for the enhancement bonus of the weapon (+1 to +5) and add on the bonus equivalent of any special ability. For example, a +1 keen weapon would get its price from the +2 line on the table (8,000 gp) because it's +1 for the enhancement bonus and +1 for the bonus equivalent of the keen ability. Each weapon must have a minimum of a +1 enhancement bonus to add any special abilities.

In the case of the +3 bonus you're asking about, if the special ability is a +3 bonus, you have to look at the +4 line for price if you tack that ability on a +1 weapon. So you'd be looking at a 32,000 gp market price for the weapon.

A +2 flaming holy long sword would price out on the +5 line - +2 for the weapon's enhancement bonus, +1 for flaming, and then +2 more for holy. 50,000 gp.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, but the progression makes no sense. Different magical bonuses don't stack enhancment values as far as I am aware, so a +2 holy and a +3 keen would only net me the greater of the two enhancements, so why would the total be a +5 instead of say, paying for each ala-carte?(18k and 32k as opposed to 90k). Furthermore, I don't understand why some weapons would require a +1 generic magic enhancement before their application. If the weapon is being created new, why can't it simply be made as a +X without the inital +1? In addition to that, I don't see why the end result would cost a +4. If enhancement bonuses don't stack, then applying a +3 to a +1 still only gets you a +3 and the creation costs of a +1 generic magic weapon is only 1000 and a +3 is 18k, so why have it cost +4 of 32k, when the net result is only +3 and the costs only 1k and 18k respectivly?

It just makes no sense. I can understand charging for a +4 when creating a say, magic longsword with +1 flaming and +3 keen. But requiring a +1 base for a +3 addition and charging for a +4 weapon makes no sense to me. It would be like charging me for new wheels on my car when I only want new tires.

I am still confused though, if its base price is +3 and it requires a +1 enhancement, even if it costs +4, does the resulting weapon have a +3 or +1 bonus?

 

[billd91]

Yes, but the progression makes no sense. Different magical bonuses don't stack enhancment values as far as I am aware, so a +2 holy and a +3 keen would only net me the greater of the two enhancements, so why would the total be a +5 instead of say, paying for each ala-carte?(18k and 32k as opposed to 90k). Furthermore, I don't understand why some weapons would require a +1 generic magic enhancement before their application. If the weapon is being created new, why can't it simply be made as a +X without the inital +1? In addition to that, I don't see why the end result would cost a +4. If enhancement bonuses don't stack, then applying a +3 to a +1 still only gets you a +3 and the creation costs of a +1 generic magic weapon is only 1000 and a +3 is 18k, so why have it cost +4 of 32k, when the net result is only +3 and the costs only 1k and 18k respectivly?

It just makes no sense. I can understand charging for a +4 when creating a say, magic longsword with +1 flaming and +3 keen. But requiring a +1 base for a +3 addition and charging for a +4 weapon makes no sense to me. It would be like charging me for new wheels on my car when I only want new tires.

I am still confused though, if its base price is +3 and it requires a +1 enhancement, even if it costs +4, does the resulting weapon have a +3 or +1 bonus?

You have to keep in mind that special abilities like keen and holy don't actually add enhancement bonuses to the weapon. They drive the price up by an amount equivalent to the listed bonus in the text: +1 for keen, +2 for holy. Adding special abilities doesn't run into stacking issues at all. They aren't actual enhancement bonuses, just equivalents used to calculate the final price and they are always additive. You don't compare the +1 for keen with the +2 for holy and assume that only the +2 for holy applies. They're not actual bonuses to use in combat.

Let's look at it this way - a magic weapon (or armor) can be valued up to +10. Up to 5 points of that value may come from actual enhancement bonuses. The rest can come from special abilities that don't add an enhancement bonus but have an enhancement bonus equivalence for rating the price.

To break down how to read what a weapon is let's look at a +3 keen long sword. It has a +3 enhancement bonus and has a keen special ability put on it. All special abilities require the weapon to have at least a +1 enhancement bonus but because we're looking at a +3 weapon here, that requirement is met (even exceeded). That keen ability has a +1 bonus equivalence. So the weapon itself is priced at the +4 level on the chart (32,000 gp).

To repeat my example before, if you want to price a +2 flaming holy long sword. You start with the +2 enhancement bonus on the table, add +1 for the flaming ability, and another +2 for the holy. That lands you at the +5 level on the table for 50,000 gp. It's still a +2 weapon for all combat calculations because that's the enhancement bonus. It just has special abilities that drive the price up to the +5 level on the chart.

Is that clearer?

 

[Blackbrrd]

You really sound confused.

To get the value of an item look at how many +x abilities it has. So, a +1 keen has the cost of a +2 item (+1 +1 for keen). Upgrading this item to a +3 keen weapon costs the difference between a +2 and a +4 item (+3+1 for keen).

The cost of a +x item is x*x*2000. So a +2 item costs 2*2*2000 = 8000 and a +4 item costs 4*4*2000 = 32000. Upgrading as in the example above costs 32k-8k = 24k.

Why they haven't just set a specific price for something like keen, so adding keen always costs 5000gp is probably that the additional extra abilities would get very expensive to start with, and relatively cheap later on.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I am a little confused on magic item pricing and the resulting enhancement.

If I read things correctly, an item with a "+3 price", starts at the +3 pricing range(18k) for a +1 enhancement.
So:
+3 price means:
+1 enh for +3 cost
+2 enh for +4 cost
+3 enh for +5 cost
etc...

No. This isn't how it works.

Most basic items cost (bonus squared) times 1000 or 2000 gp. A magic armor uses the 1000 modifier. A magic weapon uses the 2000 modifier. A stat booster uses the 1000 modifier, but note that you can only buy stat boosts in these numbers: +2, +4 and +6. (More at epic, but that's going to get confusing.)

A +3 sword is priced (bonus [3] squared) times 2000, so 9 x 2000 gp, coming out at 18,000 gp. A +2 keen sword is priced as if it were a +3 sword (since keen is priced as a +1 bonus), so it would also cost 18,000 gp (plus the base cost of a masterword sword, which is chump change). A +2 vorpal sword is priced as a +7 weapon, so bonus [7] squared times 2000 = 98,000 gp. Note that you can't buy a weapon whose enhancement bonuses exceed +5 (until epic levels anyway), but you can buy the equivalent of a +10 weapon (for instance, a +5 vorpal sword).

And finally, the more hopeful and frugal part of me wants to say +3 cost means that the item cannot start below a +3 enhancement:
+1 is unavailable
+2 is unavailable
+3 where the item starts.

You can buy a +1 suit of armor for just 1000 gp. Bonus [1] squared [still 1] times 1000 gp = 1000 gp. (Plus base cost of masterwork armor.)

 

[delericho]

As others have said, you start with the actual bonus granted by the item (minimum +1), then add the "ability plus" listed for each special ability in turn (for example, keen is +1, vorpal is +4). This gives a total, which you then use on table 7-9 to get the cost of the weapon.

(Alternately, for weapons, it's "bonus squared, times 2,000".)

Oh, and afterwards you have to add the cost of the base, masterwork weapon.

There are two restrictions:

- The total bonus (including all abilities) cannot exceed +10.
- The actual bonus (that is, not including abilities) cannot exceed +5.

(Epic magic items remove both these restrictions, albeit at additional cost.)

So:

A +1 longsword is a +1 item, costing 2,000 gp +315 for the longsword.
A +1 keen longsword is a +2 item (+1 bonus, +1 keen), costing 8,000 gp +315 for the longsword.
A +1 flaming longsword is also a +2 item (+1 bonus, +1 flaming), again costing 8,000+315 gp.
A +1 flaming keen longsword is a +3 item (+1 bonus, +1 flaming, +1 keen), costing 18,000+315 gp.

A +2 vorpal longsword is a +7 item (+2 bonus, +4 vorpal), costing 98,000+315 gp.
However, you cannot create simply a +7 longsword - such a weapon has a bonus higher than +5.

A +5 vorpal longsword is a +10 item (+5 bonus, +5 vorpal), costing 200,000+315 gp.
However, you cannot create a +5 flaming vorpal longsword, because the total bonuses exceeds the +10 maximum.

If you are the DM, I have three further recommendations I would like to make:

1) When placing treasure, if the tables indicate a weapon with a bonus higher than +1, I would recommend always giving it some sort of special effect. So, PCs might find a +1 keen longsword, a +1 flaming longsword, or whatever, but they won't find a standard +2 longsword.

2) Never place a treasure item with more than one such special ability.

3) The strength of the ability should be equal to the plus of the item, or one step weaker. So, I might place a +1 keen longsword, a +2 keen longsword, or a +2 holy longsword, but I wouldn't place a +1 holy longsword.

Two reasons for this: firstly, while items with a straight plus are undeniably effective, they're pretty dull. Better, IMO, to give items that are a bit more interesting. Secondly, many of the special abilities are better than simply getting a straight plus value (especially in 3.5e, where DR just requires "magic" to beat, rather than a specific plus). So, if they really want that +1 holy flaming longsword, bane vs evil outsiders, the PCs will have to craft it for themselves!

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

 

[Sunseeker]

A +1 longsword is a +1 item, costing 2,000 gp +315 for the longsword.
A +1 keen longsword is a +2 item (+1 bonus, +1 keen), costing 8,000 gp +315 for the longsword.
A +1 flaming longsword is also a +2 item (+1 bonus, +1 flaming), again costing 8,000+315 gp.
A +1 flaming keen longsword is a +3 item (+1 bonus, +1 flaming, +1 keen), costing 18,000+315 gp.

A +2 vorpal longsword is a +7 item (+2 bonus, +4 vorpal), costing 98,000+315 gp.
However, you cannot create simply a +7 longsword - such a weapon has a bonus higher than +5.

A +5 vorpal longsword is a +10 item (+5 bonus, +5 vorpal), costing 200,000+315 gp.
However, you cannot create a +5 flaming vorpal longsword, because the total bonuses exceeds the +10 maximum.

This makes total sense to me. I think I've finally got it straight.

For the final question, if the DM allows it, does the math work the same for applying enhancement bonuses to specific magic items, using the item's specific enhancement value as the base item?