An examination of the cost of magic.

[Sekhmet]

This post serves to share the observations I've made in my latest campaign, the details of which are; D&D 3.x, all source books available for use, must use the most recent errata or version of any text, all discrepancies decided by the DM at the table (no arguing during the game), if you didn't say it then you didn't do it, all spells prepared/spell lists to be written down and given to the DM at the beginning of each game day, no bonus spells from high ability scores, everyone starts at level 1, everyone uses 28 point buy, no LA races.

The party consisted of one CG Cleric, one experienced Wizard (utility), one Sorcerer (blaster/buffer), one Rogue, one Barbarian, and one Crusader.

My observations are as follows;

1) The Wizard and Cleric ran out of spells. Frequently. Especially before level 7.
2) After level 5, the Sorcerer began running out of spells more frequently.
3) Towards level 10, all casters began slow playing their magic for more important roles.
4) The Wizard (lv9) took Craft (Wand), although it was not a part of his original build.
5) The martial classes dominated much of the combat from lv1 to lv7.
6) There was more downtime during and between adventures.
7) The Sorcerer constantly bemoaned the fact that he didn't pick Artificier or Warlock.
8) The Cleric found that the majority of his spells were going to healing, instead of buffing (as was his original intent).
9) The Barbarian (rageaholic) died six times by lv10.
10) The Rogue's UMD score became more important than it traditionally is.
11) Although the Crusader and Barbarian were not played by experienced players, the party agreed that they were integral to unit cohesion.
12) The Sorcerer felt less than useful after level 10.
13) The Wizard and Cleric felt less useful than usual, but still enjoyed the game and are interested in trying new, similar characters under the same rules.
14) The martial classes rarely felt outshined by the casters.
15) The casters generally agreed that the martial characters felt more important than in normal games.


This more or less agreed with my assumptions, except that I had assumed the Sorcerer would have felt the most useful and important member of the group.

In closing, I encourage you to try a game in which bonus spells from high ability scores are removed. It was a big hit, and very effectively reduced the overall power of the casting classes present, without making them feel useless or under appreciated.
At least, if you have problems in your game with casters dominating play.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wouldn't try that. A 1st-level mage isn't fun enough even with the bonus spells. I would at least recommend giving something to the low-level casters, such as changing their base number of spells per day to be significantly higher, to make up for this. (As they gain levels, their base spells per day could diverge less and less from RAW until they match RAW.)

 

[trancejeremy]

Unless I'm missing something (and I might, since I only played 3.0 and that was a while ago), don't casters only get basically 4 bonus spells if they have an 18 in their casting stat? 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th? Doesn't seem like it would be a gamebreaker...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

When you only have 2 or 3 starting spells at 1st-level, losing a third or a quarter of them is a gamebreaker. (The issue isn't the wizard starting with an Int of 18. The wizard could start with a 15; they're not getting that bonus 1st-level spell.) Wizards (and other casters) at very low levels have very few spells per day, and it's a problem. This only makes it worse, even as it is apparently fixing problems at higher levels.

(By the time the wizard is 7th-level and can cast 4th-level spells, they're not severely spell-limited, and balance might actually be helped by limiting their bonus spells.)

 

[Ahnehnois]

Its amazing how playing around with these kinds of little variables can change one's experience.

 

[Greenfield]

You get a bonus spell of each level up to your casting stat bonus. But at some point you start getting a second and even third bonus spell, starting from the lower levels up.

That is, a 12 casting stat, with a total +1 bonus, gets a 1stl level bonus spell. A 14, with a +2 bonus, gets first and second level bonus spells. 16 with +3 gets 1st, second and third level bonus spells, etc.

In my experience, the problem with the power curve is seldom at lower levels. But as you reach the higher levels the spell caster power curve starts to climb pseudo-geometrically, while the melee types power gain is closer to linear.

Now if all source books are available and I was running a Sorcerer, Bard, Duskblade or other fixed-list caster, I'd invest in a Runestaff as quickly as possible. They effectively add to the known spells list, are relatively cheap for what they are, and are powered by your own spell slots so they never run out of charges.

For the Wizards in your game, I'd like to observe that their spell slots at lower levels can be effectively multiplied through the use of scrolls: They get Scribe Scroll at 1st level, automatically, and the lower level scrolls are relatively cheap. Unless the Dm intentionally denies access to scroll making supplies, I'd expect that to fill the gap created by the "No bonus spells" rule. At that point the "true cost" of the magic comes into play: It now takes a Move Action (or Move equivalent action) to draw the scroll from a prepared location (ie. not your pack) before casting, so it's the action economy where that item really gets paid for.

Did they overlook this tactic, or did the DM squelch it?

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] I did not remove access to Scribe Scroll, and the Cleric used it to great effect after about level 3, once he was able to pick it up. The Wizard was more comfortable playing cautiously, channeling his AD&D experience as a Wizard and using a magic sling that they found at level 2. Although he made a few scrolls for the Sorcerer to use, he was actually pretty effective at taking out lower armored targets with his sling. He used scrolls of Mage Armor pretty frequently.

I agree that the power curve is in reverse order at low levels (until about lv5 or 7), but I didn't start noticing a shift until lv10-12 under these rules, and even then the party wasn't so far apart that anyone felt useless (except the Sorcerer, who I feel was just whining because of his bad choices).

 

[MoonSong]

@Greenfield I did not remove access to Scribe Scroll, and the Cleric used it to great effect after about level 3, once he was able to pick it up. The Wizard was more comfortable playing cautiously, channeling his AD&D experience as a Wizard and using a magic sling that they found at level 2. Although he made a few scrolls for the Sorcerer to use, he was actually pretty effective at taking out lower armored targets with his sling. He used scrolls of Mage Armor pretty frequently.

I agree that the power curve is in reverse order at low levels (until about lv5 or 7), but I didn't start noticing a shift until lv10-12 under these rules, and even then the party wasn't so far apart that anyone felt useless (except the Sorcerer, who I feel was just whining because of his bad choices).

Can u post his general build choices? (feats & spells)?
I have got the feeling it may be more than just whining, but we could get a better understanding of the situation if u did. But I tell u, the basic sorcerer strategy fails apart under a limited slots campaign as yours. The optimal work around is crafting wands and scrolls, something sorcerers aren' so adept at, heck it isn't as obvious, (I have this impression because the sorcerer lamented not having chosen an artificer -many spells known- or warlock -more durability-, under normal circumstances the sorcerer lacks the former but is good at the later, under the new circumstances, our sorcerer seeems to lack both. You may try o reinstate bonus spells for the sorcerer alone, I think that really would help your player to feel useful. A regular nerf to a preppared caster is crippling to spontanoeus ones).

 

[delericho]

I wouldn't try that. A 1st-level mage isn't fun enough even with the bonus spells.

It's true - 3.5e would almost certainly be vastly improved if Wizards (and other full casters) had somewhat more spells at low level, and far fewer spells at high level.

But the biggest issue is not the number of spells they can cast - it's the ability of those classes to essentially bypass Vancian magic by crafting low-level scrolls and wands.

 

[Sekhmet]

Can u post his general build choices? (feats & spells)?

As I mentioned above, he decided that he would be a blaster. He changed his mind around level 7 to try to become a more versatile caster.

Most of his lv1-3 spells are your various damaging spells, with the addition of Fly, Identify, and Mage Armor. His lv4-6 spells were all defensive or utility, with no blasting.
As for feats, he went mostly blasty (even after deciding to switch to utility). Empower, that level 1 feat that allows you to be dragonblooded as a human, Craft Wondrous, Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Practical Metamagic Empower, and Craft Staff; IIRC.
His character died at lv13, and he decided against having it resurrected.

As we all know, Sorcerers are fickle beasts. To have them play effectively, a solid plan for every phase of character development is necessary. Switching around in the middle levels only weakens your character.