D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[DEFCON 1]

To be fair, some of us are oceans.

So you're salty and a little damp?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I think you can roughly divide the D&D community into two main camps; the 3E/PF crowd and the 4E crowd. I realize there are OD&D, 1E, and 2E players out there, but I find that in most arguments, they're gonna come down on the side of the 3rd Edition folks. They'll remain united so long as the 4E people are a threat.

I don't agree with this part of your statement. I don't think it is at all fair or accurate to characterize ALL AD&D fans as being sympathetic to the tastes and opinions of 3.x fans. At all. I know personally quite a few who actually prefer 4e's approach to 3e, and many old-schoolers who've adopted 4th as a better game for their tastes than 3.x was. There are not a small number of regular posters in the 4e section who have been playing since OD&D and prefer 4th to 3rd.

I'm not saying that it's universal, obviously, or even what the numbers distribution actually is, but what I *am* saying is that blanket statements are dangerous, misleading, and often inaccurate.

The rest of your points, I don't necessarily disagree with. Next isn't particularly thrilling me at this point. I'd play it, probably, if someone was really keen on it, but I'm not going to run it; I already have a game that I'm perfectly happy with and that suits my needs and preferences much better.

 

[Celebrim]

When I host games at my home, my wife and I generally provide dinner and dessert for the gathering. We have had issues with picky eaters, who will either refuse to eat, or grumble and complain about how the food provided doesn't meet their preferences - even while reaching for a third helping! Picky eaters may not prevent meal-planning, but they do restrict choices and make the thing a complicated bother.

For myself, I'm in the sitaution where I have very little concern about the rules as a player - I'll play just about any system. In your analogy, I'm a very unpicky eater. I like all kinds of food, from all cuisines and cultures, and all I really want is a well prepared meal. And also, in real life when it comes to food, I'm also a very unpicky eater.

But I'm a picky DM. I spend a lot of time evaluating and tinkering with a system before I'm ready to run it. In your analogy, I'm the picky chef. If you've come over to my house to eat, well, I'm the one doing the cooking so I get to choose the menu. And in real life, I'm pretty much like this as well when it comes to cooking. I expect eaters who aren't picky, and truth be told, generally 'judge' pickiness as a flaw if it is anything other than an actual allergy (in which case, let me know and I'll create a menu accordingly, but you still don't get to treat my house like a restuarant where you walk in and tell me what to make you).

The problem is that my easy going eater preferences really aren't relevant because 80% of my RPG career, I've been the GM.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

For myself, I'm in the sitaution where I have very little concern about the rules as a player - I'll play just about any system. In your analogy, I'm a very unpicky eater. I like all kinds of food, from all cuisines and cultures, and all I really want is a well prepared meal. And also, in real life when it comes to food, I'm also a very unpicky eater.

But I'm a picky DM. I spend a lot of time evaluating and tinkering with a system before I'm ready to run it. In your analogy, I'm the picky chef. If you've come over to my house to eat, well, I'm the one doing the cooking so I get to choose the menu. And in real life, I'm pretty much like this as well when it comes to cooking. I expect eaters who aren't picky, and truth be told, generally 'judge' pickiness as a flaw if it is anything other than an actual allergy (in which case, let me know and I'll create a menu accordingly, but you still don't get to treat my house like a restuarant where you walk in and tell me what to make you).

The problem is that my easy going eater preferences really aren't relevant because 80% of my RPG career, I've been the GM.

Yep, this nails it.

The complainers saying that Next "isn't what they want, so they won't buy into it," aren't (necessarily) saying that they won't play it, but they are saying (generally) that they don't want to run it. They're speaking as chef, not as diner. Obviously, some of the complainers are being picky players too, but I don't think most are.

 

[Obryn]

For myself, I'm in the sitaution where I have very little concern about the rules as a player - I'll play just about any system. In your analogy, I'm a very unpicky eater. I like all kinds of food, from all cuisines and cultures, and all I really want is a well prepared meal. And also, in real life when it comes to food, I'm also a very unpicky eater.

But I'm a picky DM. I spend a lot of time evaluating and tinkering with a system before I'm ready to run it. In your analogy, I'm the picky chef. If you've come over to my house to eat, well, I'm the one doing the cooking so I get to choose the menu. And in real life, I'm pretty much like this as well when it comes to cooking. I expect eaters who aren't picky, and truth be told, generally 'judge' pickiness as a flaw if it is anything other than an actual allergy (in which case, let me know and I'll create a menu accordingly, but you still don't get to treat my house like a restuarant where you walk in and tell me what to make you).

The problem is that my easy going eater preferences really aren't relevant because 80% of my RPG career, I've been the GM.

Yep, that was what I was trying to get at with my response to Umbran, too. It's not like I'll sit out playing a game with my friends because of minor rules BS. But I'm in a situation where I can be picky as to the games I run, for now.

-O

 

[Derren]

5E will fail pretty hard imo.

To get people to convert (and ignoring the people who always play the newest edition) 5E has to be an improvement over what the people play now. And it is imo pretty obvious that what 3E, PF and 4E players consider improvement is most of the time diametrically opposed.
Also with all their "game to unite editions" marketing going on 5E seems to go more for a "It is not as quite bad as the edition you do not like" feeling which will please no one.

I would be surprised if 5E even makes the same money as 4E did, let alone what Hasbro expects from it to let it live.

 

[D'karr]

Yep, this nails it.

The complainers saying that Next "isn't what they want, so they won't buy into it," aren't (necessarily) saying that they won't play it, but they are saying (generally) that they don't want to run it. They're speaking as chef, not as diner. Obviously, some of the complainers are being picky players too, but I don't think most are.

I've been part of the playtest since before it was open, and I must say that it truly has been a playtest. They are shoving quite a bit of stuff over the wall for people to take a look at, and I'm sure there is a lot of stuff that is not even making it over the wall now, or yet.

Even though there are things that don't excite me enough, right now, I also have to keep in mind all the changes I've seen to the rules over this time. It is really an unfair assessment, looking at the rules right now, what they will look like come actual publication time. So I don't jump to conclusions based on what we are seeing at this point. If you are part of the playtest the best use of your time is giving feedback on things that are working, and things that are not. Making a decision now on whether I'm going to like DDN when it finally gets published is like making a decision to buy a car when all I've seen are the tires, the radio, and the cushions on the seats. There is just not enough information to make a very informed decision, and that is what I'm going to wait for to make a decision, actual information.

The Legends and Lore columns, the Q&A, the podcasts, and even the playtest documents are just very vague glimpses.

 

[darjr]

There is just not enough information to make a very informed decision, and that is what I'm going to wait for to make a decision, actual information.

for me this nails it. consider that WotC has put the core of how healing works on the table. imho that is a huge change.

 

[Obryn]

There is just not enough information to make a very informed decision, and that is what I'm going to wait for to make a decision, actual information.

Given that it's not for sale yet, that's the boat all of us are in, including those of us who think Next isn't looking so good right now.

Nobody is actually making purchasing decisions yet, is what I'm saying.

-O

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Even though there are things that don't excite me enough, right now, I also have to keep in mind all the changes I've seen to the rules over this time. It is really an unfair assessment, looking at the rules right now, what they will look like come actual publication time. So I don't jump to conclusions based on what we are seeing at this point. If you are part of the playtest the best use of your time is giving feedback on things that are working, and things that are not.

I had been doing this but it seemed to have little effect. I guess my opinion is in the minority. Many of the things I complained about continue to drift further from my preferences, not closer to them.

Making a decision now on whether I'm going to like DDN when it finally gets published is like making a decision to buy a car when all I've seen are the tires, the radio, and the cushions on the seats. There is just not enough information to make a very informed decision, and that is what I'm going to wait for to make a decision, actual information.

I would liken this more to making a decision to buy a car when all I've seen is the specs on the drivetrain and some suspension parts. If I want a car with given performance and handling, this is the first place I will look, and I can make a decision based on that; doesn't matter what the body work looks like (unless truly hideous), or what tires it has, or the radio. Those are all things I can change if I want, after I buy. Swapping engines, transmissions, and suspension components is a much bigger deal, to the point where you might as well look at a different vehicle if the stock parts don't do what you want them to.

Maybe you picked a bad analogy, but if you didn't, then all it did was further underscore any issues I have with the way things are going.[/quote]

The Legends and Lore columns, the Q&A, the podcasts, and even the playtest documents are just very vague glimpses.

That they are.