Pathfinder 1E Your experiences with broken Pathfinder characters? (edit: more accurately, w/1 avg PF character when the rest of the party is meh)

[Schmoe]

Let me ask a question. If that is what you really want, why worry about where AC comes from at all? Why consider armor or magic in the equation at all? I mean, when you get down to it, the majority of the complexity you are describing in the situation that prompted this post is armor and magic (plus an 'unhittable' class feature very much like what you are describing). Why not just assign an AC fo all characters based on level and qualified by class and perhaps your ability score? Whether you put on armor or are nimble and fast is just color, regardless you end up with the same AC. If you level, your AC goes up and this is described merely by color - you found some magic armor or you got more nimble. Which it is is meaningless in the framework of the game, and the stated goal - ensuring simplicity of resolution and balance is really easy to achieve.

Likewise, why worry about what weapon the combatant is using to do damage? Why not just assign each character a die based on level and class, possibly modified by a single ability bonus, and consider the weapon to be just color? It doesn't really matter if the character is pummeling someone with fists or stabbing with a knife or slashing with a sword. Again simplicity of resolution and balance is really easy to achieve. What do you achieve by doing something different?

I have a similar question, but for a different reason. Why care at all how the character got his or her AC? The concern is that there are too many fiddly bits to keep track of to get that AC, but why does the DM need to track it? If the player is enjoying that aspect of the game, let the player enjoy it. The DM just needs to know the final number, which the player can provide.

@ RangerWicket - You say that you want a cinematic feel to the games where you don't have to hunt for obscure bonuses to challenge the PCs. Fine. If a character has an amazing AC and can't be hit, instead of thinking about it as a mechanical problem, think about it from the cinematic point of view. What would the enemies do if there was a character that deftly ducked, dodged, and weaved around their clumsy attacks? Well, obviously, they would begin to try other ways to beat him. Grappling. Tangle bags. Nets. Gang up and "aid another". Surround and flank. Et cetera, et cetera. As someone else said, you want this to be some sort of super spy mission, but you don't want to have super heroes. Sometimes grunts need to get creative, or they will be completely overwhelmed by the heroes. I don't see where the problem is with that, and in fact, I think it can lend itself to MORE cinematic play. Stop looking at it as a mechanical challenge, and instead look at it as a tactical challenge.

Also, I don't know if this applies to your situation, but if you are attempting to use classed NPCs to provide a challenge, keep in mind that the CR guidelines for NPCs are woefully inadequate. Level -2 or -3 seems to be a decent starting point for NPCs. You might even consider level * 3/4.

 

[JustinAlexander]

The aasimar's AC is 10 + 6 Wisdom + 2 Dex + 1 monk = 19. Typically she adds mage armor (+4 armor), and when she knows trouble's a-brewing she'll add on shield (+4 shield) and reduce person (an extra +1 Dex and +1 size), for a total of AC 29. She asked about the Qiggong Monk, which would have let her trade out slow fall for barkskin, adding another +2, and when I actually looked at her math and realized how ridiculous she was, she pointed out that she hasn't even taken Dodge.

Doesn't seem that broken. She can only do that twice per day and against CR 7 monsters (which should have a +13 attack bonus) she'll still get hit 25% of the time. So it's not like she's found some loophole that completely blows open the balance of the game: Bog standard opponents are still going to be able to hit her.

And, yes, in two encounters per day she's 30% less likely to get hit than the fighter. But since the fighter is clearly not putting any significant resources towards their AC (in terms of equipment, class features, or ability scores), they should be making it up somewhere else.

 

[Mad Hamish]

I might eventually start a House Rules thread on this topic, but first I wanted to hear what other gamers have experienced on this topic.

I have a group of 7th level PCs:
* A warforged fighter/warforged juggernaut. AC 23.
* A half-orc dragon shaman. AC 20.
* A human summoner. AC 17.
* A human wizard. AC 12.
* aaaand an aasimar sorcerer 3/zen archer monk 4.

The aasimar's AC is 10 + 6 Wisdom + 2 Dex + 1 monk = 19. Typically she adds mage armor (+4 armor), and when she knows trouble's a-brewing she'll add on shield (+4 shield) and reduce person (an extra +1 Dex and +1 size), for a total of AC 29. She asked about the Qiggong Monk, which would have let her trade out slow fall for barkskin, adding another +2, and when I actually looked at her math and realized how ridiculous she was, she pointed out that she hasn't even taken Dodge.

Oh, and her attack bonus as a Zen Archer is +12 (base 4, +6 Wisdom, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement), which is the same as the fighter. Plus she runs faster and doesn't have to engage in melee. She has a +7 Reflex save (the fighter has +1).

Now maybe I've drunk too much D&D Next kool-aid, but I hate the amount of math and stacking of weird bonuses that goes on in 3.5/PF. Has anyone successfully fixed the problem? Do I just need to send high level wizards with empowered Magic Missiles at her?

The monk/sorceror has probably 6 first level spells. Mage Armor lasts for 3 hours a casting. Shield is 3 minutes as is Reduce person so those buffs can't be on often.
While reduced she does reduced damage and she won't be doing huge damage anyway.

To get +6 from wisdom they need a score of 22 which isn't possible without a magic item, at 7th level they should have 23500 to 33000 gp which means they shouldn't have a headband +4 so they should have a 20 base and presumably a +2 headband of wisdom. To get 20 base as 7th level they needed to start with a 19 so they put 13 of their points in it. To get +2 dex they need a 14 which is 5 points. That's 18 points spent there, assume they have 12 Cha after racial adjustment that leaves them 2 points for int, str and con out of a 20 point build and 7 for a 25 point build.
That gives them pretty low damage and hit points

So it's a character who is delaying their monk abilities and does relatively little damage to be able to self-buff their AC high if they get prep time.
They've lost a point on attack rolls and sacrificed hit points by picking up sorcerer - plus sacrificing favoured class, their casting level will drop behind so dispel magic will knock their buffs off.

When the monk moves they can't flurry with the bow, with 40' movement they will commonly be in charge range anyway. If somebody gets adjacent then she's down to 1 attack or eats attacks of opportunity

It appears that your fighter has a 10 dex if a fighter 5 juggernaut 2, 8 if a fighter 6, juggernaut 1, with that they should expect to be low on reflex saves and AC. However it should be doing a hell of a lot more damage and probably have a lot more hit points.
The juggernaut looks to have a BAB of +7, +1 for Weapon Training which gives +4 other bonuses to hit, now without knowing the build or gear it's tough to say what they've invested but it looks like they've invested less than the monk on to hit but will probably still do a lot more damage.

If the Wizard has done nothing for AC by 7th level then you've been letting them be far too comfortable (or possibly they depend on displacement or similar)

How does the Monk always have time to prepare? If they do what are the other characters doing in preparation, how do you let them setup for combat and do you have opposition trying to get the squishies?

Note that the Monk's AC is pointless if nobody is attacking them and if they aren't a legitimate threat they can be left to last...an untouchable character commonly suffers from not being effective because they've put a lot of effort and resources into being unhittable.

Also note that Swarms, damage auras etc don't care about AC...

 

[ggeilman]

You appear to be forgetting the Zen archer part of the character. The monk will be a constant threat at range for flury of blows with his bow. Even at small it will be at least 1d4+1 each hit.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

You appear to be forgetting the Zen archer part of the character. The monk will be a constant threat at range for flury of blows with his bow. Even at small it will be at least 1d4+1 each hit.

True. Of course, they also won't be able to flurry with bow and not provoke for several more levels...

 

[Mad Hamish]

You appear to be forgetting the Zen archer part of the character. The monk will be a constant threat at range for flury of blows with his bow. Even at small it will be at least 1d4+1 each hit.

If that isn't meant to be sarcasm

At 7th level I am not worried about a character doing 2 attacks doing d4+1 or d6+1 or d8 + 2 which is probably more likely
it's extremely poor damage for that level of character.

a base 2 handed fighter will probably be doing 2d6 + 9 or +10 damage without any optimization effort whatsoever.

Anything with DR will laugh at the monk.

 

[ggeilman]

At third level:

[h=4]Flurry of Blows (Ex)[/h]Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.

A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
[h=4]Bonus Feats[/h]A zen archer’s bonus feats must be taken from the following list:
Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Improved Critical, Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run, and Snatch Arrows.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
These feats replace the monk’s normal bonus feats.
[h=4]Perfect Strike (Ex)[/h]At 1st level, a zen archer gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A zen archer can use Perfect Strike with any bow. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the highest result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the monk must choose one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll.

This ability replaces stunning fist.
[h=4]Way of the Bow (Ex)[/h]At 2nd level, a zen archer gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one type of bow.
At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces evasion.
[h=4]Zen Archery (Ex)[/h]At 3rd level, a zen archer may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier on ranged attack rolls when using a bow.

This ability replaces maneuver training.
[h=4]Point Blank Master (Ex)[/h]At 3rd level, a zen archer gains Point Blank Master* as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces still mind.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

At third level:

[h=4]Flurry of Blows (Ex)[/h]Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.

A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
[h=4]Bonus Feats[/h]A zen archer’s bonus feats must be taken from the following list:
Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Improved Critical, Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run, and Snatch Arrows.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
These feats replace the monk’s normal bonus feats.
[h=4]Perfect Strike (Ex)[/h]At 1st level, a zen archer gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A zen archer can use Perfect Strike with any bow. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the highest result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the monk must choose one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll.

This ability replaces stunning fist.
[h=4]Way of the Bow (Ex)[/h]At 2nd level, a zen archer gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one type of bow.
At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces evasion.
[h=4]Zen Archery (Ex)[/h]At 3rd level, a zen archer may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier on ranged attack rolls when using a bow.

This ability replaces maneuver training.
[h=4]Point Blank Master (Ex)[/h]At 3rd level, a zen archer gains Point Blank Master* as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces still mind.

Yup, we have the book, or access to the PRD. That doesn't negate that the player has seriously sacrificed ability to do damage in order to not be hit.

 

[ggeilman]

Not arguing that, however the statement was made that the monk would not be able to flury with the bow w/o provoking for several more levels which it is clear that the monk has the ability to currently do. That was my point of copying the abilites of the archetype. Point Blank Master gives the Monk the ability to flury w/o being provoked and with Perfect Strike he is going to hit often.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

You are correct, and I misspoke... I blame not having my morning coffee. What I meant to say is that the character will not be able to TAKE AoO's with their bow for several more levels, as they won't get reflexive shot until 9th, and their BAB is not high enough for Snap Shot.

My bad.