Pathfinder 1E Your experiences with broken Pathfinder characters? (edit: more accurately, w/1 avg PF character when the rest of the party is meh)

It really doesn't matter whether your PCs are broken. If they're optimized, then throw harder challenges at them. If they're RPers, take it down a notch. As a GM, the only problem I have is when optimized and non-optimized characters in the same group. That makes it hard to find a challenge for the optimizers without killing the RPers.

I'm in a game now where I play an antipaladin, and it's shocking how good he is at wrecking anything he can smite. I'm pretty sure my GM has actually started combining encounters in the adventure path. Like, not facing a celestial first, and then the phoenix that the celestial was guarding, but instead, having to do both of them at the same time.
 

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I agree with this. While balance is good it's nearly impossible given the number of possibilities that a game like pathfinder has when you start actually looking at the interdependencies of every game mechanic that has with every other game mechanic then you really see how it starts to become a chaotic system. A DM simply must adapt his game to support the group. Most of these balance issues can be solved with simple spell restrictions. I have run into way to many people that think they should just allow anything and everything. This is not so, a GM has the ability to create a world and with such a responsibility he should add and limit what goes INTO that world. Got a problem with a spell? Make it incredibly hard to acquire. The biggest comeback I always here is that they shouldn't have to fiddle with the game, it should be balanced right out of the box. With a game as complex as pathfinder that's nigh impossible. To me pathfinder and the entire 3.x edition is a huge tool box, and I love it that way.
 

It starts to become an issue when you have optimizers and non-optimizers in the same group. If you increase the encounters to compensate for the optimizer then all the sudden a lot of characters start dieing. I had one in my group recently and in 3 months we had 11 deaths. He has been gone a month and 0 deaths in 6 games.
 

I play in a game where one of the characters is mechanically broken. That is to say he was built using 2 rule sets, Pathfinder and Arcana Evolved, and the DM and player have unsuccessfully tried to meld them together in Hero Lab. The problem stems from their reliance on technology and not reading the actual text within the books. But I'm the only one who sees this as a problem and I've developed a reputation as a rules lawyer, who usually finds that we are reading the rules wrong (or not completely) so I try to ignore things or wait until they crop up and point them out after the game.
 

I play in a game where one of the characters is mechanically broken. That is to say he was built using 2 rule sets, Pathfinder and Arcana Evolved, and the DM and player have unsuccessfully tried to meld them together in Hero Lab. The problem stems from their reliance on technology and not reading the actual text within the books. But I'm the only one who sees this as a problem and I've developed a reputation as a rules lawyer, who usually finds that we are reading the rules wrong (or not completely) so I try to ignore things or wait until they crop up and point them out after the game.

You should play an Oracle named Cassandra and see how long it takes them to figure it out. :p
 


I might eventually start a House Rules thread on this topic, but first I wanted to hear what other gamers have experienced on this topic.

I have a group of 7th level PCs:
* A warforged fighter/warforged juggernaut. AC 23.
* A half-orc dragon shaman. AC 20.
* A human summoner. AC 17.
* A human wizard. AC 12.
* aaaand an aasimar sorcerer 3/zen archer monk 4.

The aasimar's AC is 10 + 6 Wisdom + 2 Dex + 1 monk = 19. Typically she adds mage armor (+4 armor), and when she knows trouble's a-brewing she'll add on shield (+4 shield) and reduce person (an extra +1 Dex and +1 size), for a total of AC 29. She asked about the Qiggong Monk, which would have let her trade out slow fall for barkskin, adding another +2, and when I actually looked at her math and realized how ridiculous she was, she pointed out that she hasn't even taken Dodge.

Oh, and her attack bonus as a Zen Archer is +12 (base 4, +6 Wisdom, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement), which is the same as the fighter. Plus she runs faster and doesn't have to engage in melee. She has a +7 Reflex save (the fighter has +1).

Now maybe I've drunk too much D&D Next kool-aid, but I hate the amount of math and stacking of weird bonuses that goes on in 3.5/PF. Has anyone successfully fixed the problem? Do I just need to send high level wizards with empowered Magic Missiles at her?
That monk character doesn't even seem all that optimized. It sounds like he gave up a ton of power in order to grab some things that will temporarily give him higher than average AC. In a few more levels when more gold and magic items become available (Like Bracers of Armor) he will be wishing he was straight monk, as those 3 sorcerer levels will be a waste.

It seems to me like the other 4 people in the party must be just awful at character optimization, and that's why this very tamely "optimized" Monk is showing them up so badly.

I think Pathfinder might just not be the system for your group. You should look for something that is easy for your novice players to understand so they don't fall behind the other player who is actually putting forth a little effort into understanding and working with the "game" part of a RPG to make his character more powerful - which, as some other people have already brought up in previous posts, and I agree with, is debatable because this PC seems to have given up all offensive capability, and given up a good amount of future power, in order to get a high AC at level seven. I wouldn't even call that optimized, just specialized.
 

I think Pathfinder might just not be the system for your group.

I don't think you need to go so far as to change game system. Actually, all that seems to need to change are expectations - if a character is night unhittable, that is not the end of the world. And as other have pointed out, optimization (or lack thereof) is only a problem if it is applied unevenly, making some characters dominate ore than they should.
 


That monk character doesn't even seem all that optimized. It sounds like he gave up a ton of power in order to grab some things that will temporarily give him higher than average AC. In a few more levels when more gold and magic items become available (Like Bracers of Armor) he will be wishing he was straight monk, as those 3 sorcerer levels will be a waste.

It seems to me like the other 4 people in the party must be just awful at character optimization, and that's why this very tamely "optimized" Monk is showing them up so badly.

I think Pathfinder might just not be the system for your group. You should look for something that is easy for your novice players to understand so they don't fall behind the other player who is actually putting forth a little effort into understanding and working with the "game" part of a RPG to make his character more powerful - which, as some other people have already brought up in previous posts, and I agree with, is debatable because this PC seems to have given up all offensive capability, and given up a good amount of future power, in order to get a high AC at level seven. I wouldn't even call that optimized, just specialized.

Not a case of being overpowered. It's a case of being meh in a team of underpowered.

These guys have nailed it. My (not entirely friendly, for which I apologize) first reaction upon reading the OP: "Imagine the chagrin if the Monk player decides to take another Sorcerer level and learn Mirror Image! Woe is me! Somebody needs to step their game up, or play a different one in the first place, for this PC-has-high-AC 'problem' is really not that fresh..."

I'm not trying to bash on you, OP, but high AC crops up soooo often as a supposed problem when DMing any edition of D&D, one gets really tired of reading these threads over and over again. Do a search on just about any D&D board, see your topic hashed and rehashed to death in threads from 2004 or so, with much the same arguments and more or less helpful answers provided as here. But since this is obviously fresh and new to you, and I'm probably better off either helping or shutting up, here's my two cents:

I think the best advice I can give is the following. Once you understand how Pathfinder works, what's effective and what isn't, what's incentivized and what isn't, which strategies kick ass and which fall short - you'll realize that you're expecting a whole different game than what Pathfinder (or any of the more recent D&D editions) provides. Then you can decide whether the game has other merits and you want to keep playing it, or whether you want to find a different game.

So you either learn to optimize to a certain degree, you know, learn the ins and outs of the system. Never hurt a good DM to know the mechanical side of their game. To assume solid roleplaying gets detracted of by solid rollplaying is a fallacy. There's plenty of online resources if you want to go this route, and plenty of helpful folk out there to provide aid. You're forced to metagame, sure, but as a DM, that's your job anyway. You'll look back on this thread and wonder out loud: "did I really complain about a Sorcerer 3/Monk 4 being OP? Seriously?!"

Or, you can decide you really don't like how modifiers stack, or how some strategies are penalized in comparison to others even though there's no "logical" reason for this rules quirk, or how some PCs can achieve feats of specialization that run counter to your mental image of what they ought to be able to do. In other words, you can decide that certain parts inherent to the game system don't appeal to you, which, it goes without saying, is perfectly valid and fine.

But until you develop a better understanding of what's "normal" or "to be expected" in a PF game, you probably need to put your expectations of what ought to be on hold, and just observe what happens in the game. As long as the other players don't complain about your "problem" PC, and as long as you can still enjoy the game yourself, you're probably fine for a while. Try different things, observe whether your "problem" is really that (something that needs resolving), or just a quirk of that particular character (unhittability in exchange for almost complete lack of offensive power).

Above all, try not to hold the player responsible for what you might perceive as a flaw in the system (I'd call it a feature, not a bug, but YMMV) - it's not his fault.
 

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