• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Sneak Attack: optional or mandatory?

I prefer Sneak Attack to be...

  • a mandatory/common feature of all Rogues

    Votes: 44 37.9%
  • a feature of some Rogue subclasses only

    Votes: 39 33.6%
  • optional for each Rogue individually (~Wizardry)

    Votes: 28 24.1%
  • something else (or whatever)

    Votes: 5 4.3%

pemerton

Legend
What I would not prefer is a set of rules, at least in the PHB without any warning as to its consequences, that allows a Rogue to forgo their main combat ability and replace it with a non-combat one. At least not in D&D, which is a game that leans on combat.
As I indicated in a couple of posts upthread, the rules currently do allow this for a wizard. Is that a problem?

To take a step back, Charm Person is one of how many spells a wizard will have available to him (not the spell list, but the choices of spells he can choose to cast)? At first level, the Rogue having the equivalent of Charm Person might be a reasonable combat ability. That L1 wizard will likely only have a couple of offensive spells, and both may have no great combat choices if they run into the wrong opponent (here, a non-human), and be back to their weapons. However, it has to scale up with level - at L3, L5 and L12, that Wizard has a lot more options that a Charm Person and another minor offensive spell, and the rogue should have combat abilities that are similarly enhanced in power, effectiveness and/or versatility.
I sketched out a spell selection sequence for a wizard, up to about 10th level, that leaves a wizard with no damaging spells, and no combat-only spells.

Of course a rogue needs to be versatile and more powerful with level. But as the wizard example shows, there are ways to do this without defauting to assassination/back ally mugging. Why can't we have high level rogues who help win combats by blinding and confusing enemies; by concealng the rest of the party so they can launch devastting ambushes; by charming and bluffing and persuading NPCs; by leading the party away through secret paths that evade enemy forces; etc? Fantasy RPGs like Burning Wheel and Hero Wars/Quest can support these options for rogues - why should D&D limit them to casters only?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

ThirdWizard

First Post
As I indicated in a couple of posts upthread, the rules currently do allow this for a wizard. Is that a problem?

I sketched out a spell selection sequence for a wizard, up to about 10th level, that leaves a wizard with no damaging spells, and no combat-only spells.

It's kind of an apples and oranges situation here. If you're 3rd level and find that your wizard isn't doing so hot in combat, all it takes is picking an offensive spell when you level or the DM placing an offensive spell in some treasure. There, done. You're "fixed." A rogue who foregoes Sneak Attack? Make a new character. It really isn't the same thing.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's kind of an apples and oranges situation here. If you're 3rd level and find that your wizard isn't doing so hot in combat, all it takes is picking an offensive spell when you level or the DM placing an offensive spell in some treasure. There, done. You're "fixed." A rogue who foregoes Sneak Attack? Make a new character. It really isn't the same thing.
Then let's fix the PC build rules. (Eg 4e has retraining rules that help cover this sort of issue).

I don't mean for that to sound curt, or flip - I see your point. It just seems like the design considerations are being reversed from their proper priority. We're letting completely metagame features of the system - the rules for PC building, and how much flexibility they permit - trump considerations of what sort of ingame fiction and characterisation should be viable.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
You're right, of course. The edition is still in playtest, and anything is possible at this point. If we're talking best case scenarios, I think the problem with Sneak Attack is that its all eggs in one basket. Divvy it up, and you've got more to play around with.

So, reduce Sneak Attack's damage. By exactly how much would require some testing, but that's step one. This opens up design space to add further combat abilities to the rogue. Therefore, that's step two. Add new combat abilities. I won't offer specifics, but the idea is that rogues can then start using options to trade X for Y and it won't be as huge an impact as to their combat prowess.

Then, add in the retraining rules. Let the player make mistakes without it being campaign destroying. Give some flexibility.

This is much better, IMO, than what we've got now.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Or we could stop insisting that D&D is a tactical combat simulator, focus more on the fact that D&D is a role playing game first and foremost, and stop describing a rogue doing less damage per attack than is optimal as "campaign destroying".

Earlier it was suggested if a wizard finds they need to do more damage, the DM can insert a scroll of a damage spell into treasure. And that same DM can't insert a magic shortbow for the rogue? Or it was said the wizard can choose a damage spell at a higher level - and a rogue can't select feats that increase damage at a higher level?

There are ways to correct course if you find you're not on the course you'd prefer to be on, without insisting the course always be a certain thing.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
A scroll or spell to a wizard is not the same as a magic short bow. And, lets not pretend like we're only comparing the rogue to a wizard. We have to compare the rogue to the fighter, the cleric, everybody. And they use magic weapons as well. So, unless you're giving the rogue better magic weapons than the other combatants, then you aren't really fixing anything. And, if you are just going to give the rogue a shortbow +1 +4d6 damage then what's the point of taking away sneak attack? Seriously, if you're just going to give the rogue an option to lose Sneak Attack, then give it back in the form of a magic item, then why did you give the option to take it away in the first place? The wizard is built with the idea of having multiple spells. The rogue not so much.
 

Warbringer

Explorer
... The wizard is built with the idea of having multiple spells. The rogue not so much.

Only because it is a design constraint, nothing to do with the class role.

There is no reason, (balancing issues and playtesting not withstanding), that the rogues "Sneak Attack" is a fungible resource, not a a static one, so the rogue can use sneak dice for ..

Sneaky Damage: When you hit and have advantage, spend a d6 for an additional d6 damage
Pain in the..: When you hit and have advantage, spend a d6 to inflict a -1 penalty on all an opponents actions
Defensive Roll: Spend a d6 to reduce damage from an opponent
Always a Threa: When you threaten spend a d6 to do 2 points of damage to all in a burst a d6 to add 10 feet to your move
Charm the Pants: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Influence checks
Quiet as a Church Mouse: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Stealth checks
No Lock Yet Invented: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Disable Device/Open Locks checks

etc ....
 

N'raac

First Post
As I indicated in a couple of posts upthread, the rules currently do allow this for a wizard. Is that a problem?

I have never seen an arcane spellcaster with no combat-relevant spells. I have played several with no damaging spells. I dislike damage spells as a spellcaster since anyone can do damage, so I'd rather do something they cannot do, ideally with spells that stick around for a bit rather than needing to cast another each round.

I sketched out a spell selection sequence for a wizard, up to about 10th level, that leaves a wizard with no damaging spells, and no combat-only spells.

Is sneak attack "combat only"? It can take out an unwary guard, facilitating exploration (or kidnapping to facilitate interaction). Regardless, can we please stop using "damage only" and "combat-useful" interchangeably? Damaging abilities are a subset of combat abilities. Not all combat abilities are damage-causing. I can even envision damage-causing abilities that are not combat abilities (eg. a slow poison inflicting 1 damage every hour, which cannot be healed until it is cured, is pretty combat-useless, but could be useful as a social - intimidation - context.

To reiterate "does damage" and "is combat-useful" are not the synonyms.

Of course a rogue needs to be versatile and more powerful with level. But as the wizard example shows, there are ways to do this without defauting to assassination/back ally mugging. Why can't we have high level rogues who help win combats by blinding and confusing enemies; by concealng the rest of the party so they can launch devastting ambushes; by charming and bluffing and persuading NPCs; by leading the party away through secret paths that evade enemy forces; etc? Fantasy RPGs like Burning Wheel and Hero Wars/Quest can support these options for rogues - why should D&D limit them to casters only?

Blind/confuse seem like excellent potential replacements for sneak attack. Concealment to ambush is borderline - is that ambush as devestating as, say, a Fireball because you get the drop for the first round? If not, it is still useful, but less than a full replacement. The rest seem like great non-combat abilities for rogues (or others, for that matter), but do not replace the ability to be effective in combat. The other option is to make combat a much less frequent challenge resolution mechanic, that occupies a much smaller proportion of game time, so being combat-useless doesn't take the player out of game for hours, but maybe only a few minutes at a time and rarely, if ever, for 25%+ of a game session.

Or we could stop insisting that D&D is a tactical combat simulator, focus more on the fact that D&D is a role playing game first and foremost, and stop describing a rogue doing less damage per attack than is optimal as "campaign destroying".

I'm open to this just as soon as we have a best-selling, well regarded adventure series which features less than 25%, by volume and time spent playing, of challenges resolved by combat, where that rogue with not just "less damage than a rogue optimized for combat", but "no combat abilities competetive with the other characters such that he is a non-issue in combat" is not only viable, but a desirable character.

Earlier it was suggested if a wizard finds they need to do more damage, the DM can insert a scroll of a damage spell into treasure. And that same DM can't insert a magic shortbow for the rogue? Or it was said the wizard can choose a damage spell at a higher level - and a rogue can't select feats that increase damage at a higher level?

A scroll provides the wizard one more choice of spells to cast. A magic shortbow that replaces the ability the rogue gave up? Great - I'll take the noncombat ability plus the free magic weapons that return my combat ability, rather than the combat ability and no non-combat ability. Adding a new spell, or a dozen new spells, to a wizard is trivial (unless Next changed that a lot - and my understanding is one L1 spell can be used for all spell levels, with increasingly powerful effects). ThirdWizard nails this one dead on.

The Rogue who trades away Sneak Attack at 1st level for, say, better interaction skills can take what, exactly, that will bring his combat skills back up? If the Next rules provide for him to do so, I would be much less concerned with his loss of combat ability. But if the real answer is "well, he can retrain to correct his stupid decision when he's up four levels", my question is why not just prevent the stupid decision in the first place so the player doesn't spend four levels bored and useless for a good chunk of the game?
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
But once you locate class abilities within this sort of explicit metagame framework, a whole lot about D&Dnext starts to unravel.

Seems to me like you could remove "next" from that sentence and it still works.

Which is why (ironically perhaps) my assessment of D&D as an rpg continues to diminish.
 

N'raac

First Post
Only because it is a design constraint, nothing to do with the class role.

There is no reason, (balancing issues and playtesting not withstanding), that the rogues "Sneak Attack" is a fungible resource, not a a static one, so the rogue can use sneak dice for ..

Sneaky Damage: When you hit and have advantage, spend a d6 for an additional d6 damage
Pain in the..: When you hit and have advantage, spend a d6 to inflict a -1 penalty on all an opponents actions
Defensive Roll: Spend a d6 to reduce damage from an opponent
Always a Threa: When you threaten spend a d6 to do 2 points of damage to all in a burst a d6 to add 10 feet to your move
Charm the Pants: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Influence checks
Quiet as a Church Mouse: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Stealth checks
No Lock Yet Invented: Spend a d6 and generate an extra expertise die for Disable Device/Open Locks checks

When you say "spend a d6" what does that mean, exactly. I like the other combat abilities. The first group (up to "Charm") seem like you would get a bonus for each d6 of Sneak Attack used when the circumstances are right, and be permitted to divide them up where multiple circumstances are met. [HEY, D&D Next Designers - COME MINE THIS THREAD FOR GREAT ALTERNATIVES TO SNEAK ATTACK WHICH CAN KEEP THE ROGUE VIABLE IN COMBAT!!!]

But I'm unclear what happens to, say, the dice I spend to be skillful outside combat? Do I just get these every time? I'd be OK with that as choices to replace non-combat abilities, but not combat-related abilities.

But my bias would be for every class to have some resources fixed to combat (ideally lots of choices, but ALL combat related), some fixed to non-combat (maybe even fixed separately to exploration and social), and perhaps some more that they can allocate between combat and non-combat. I do not want any class, as a default, to be able to sell off all of their combat abilities to be (virtually) useless, and bored, in combat. Nor do I want anyone able to sell off all their non-combat abilities to be a combat machine, as a default. A module allowing this, with a discussion of the impact? Sure - the more modules, the merrier! But the default character should be able to participate - effectively - in every aspect of the game.

@pemerton: (sorry; just thought of this) To the spells issue, I am OK with the wizard picking his spells. If he picks all non-combat spells, he can fix this within a single level, or seek out new spells before gaining a level. That's easy. And at 1st level, his crossbow lets him participate in combat. He's not going to lose all his combat spells when he goes from Level 6 to L7. A better comparison to the Rogue trading Sneak Attack is the wizard being able to forego the ability to cast any spell in less than, say, 10 combat rounds, with no way to reverse that decision, or only able to reverse it after a significant period of game time has passed (say 3 or 4 levels - how often do we envision allowing the rogue to swap back in for sneak attack?) The Wizard's class ability is not "This spell and that spell". It is the ability to cast arcane spells.
 

Remove ads

Top